GROUP BREAK/RIP CODE OF ETHICS: Item 1a - We Seem to Have the Time (9:30PM EST) - How Much Advance N

70ToppsFanatic

Based on what we've receive throughout the day the overwhelming winner is between 9PM-10PM EST.
I suggested meeting in the middle at 9:30PM so that we can move ahead.

The next question is how much advance notice? At least 12 hours after posting the official thread? At
least 24 hours?

Please get your thoughts back.

Thanks

Dave


There has been a bit of discussion about trying to level the playing field for group rips/breaks by
setting a pre-determined start time (regardless of when the thread first appears) that would be
pre-announced by at least 24 hours so that no one is disadvantaged by the time difference.

With that in mind, would you please post your thoughts as to what a good start time might be.

For example, I suggested either 2PM EST or 4PM EST so that people out west would not be
sleeping, caught up in rush hour traffic or in the middle of dinner with their families. Talking to
Tim (grote15) he felt that 9PM EST might be better because some people might not have access
from work.

Obviously there is no one time that is going to be perfect for every one or every situation, but if we
could get an idea of what the general concensus around here is we can certainly improve upon how
we've done so far with the next group rip/break.

Thanks in advance for your input. I'll try to monitor this and publish a summary of the thoughts
over the next few days.

Cheers

Dave

jwgators

Somewhere between 9 and 10 est. Hopefully that would give west coasters the ability to get home if they can't access from work.

Dboneesq

Unfortunately I have not been participating in the breaks, but I would think that 9:00pm Eastern SHOULD work for you guys.

Francart

9pm est

alifaxwa2

I think a maximum per person purchase for the first 48 hours is the better way to do it.

leathtech

10:30 central time

SidePocket

I agree with alifawax, if there is a limit for the first 2 days then usually everyone interested can get in.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>I agree with alifawax, if there is a limit for the first 2 days then usually everyone interested can get in. >>



I cant recall a break/rip so far where there has not been a max/limit per time period. What that amount should be
may not be the same for all breaks/rips, but I think that has been done pretty successfully so far (with perhaps an
exception to the current 1975 mini break where some people have multiple "slots" in different boxes that probably
should have only goten 1 slot for the first 24 hours).

Let's try to stay focused on the start time for now. That has been a major source of dissatisfaction for a number of breaks
to date. We can put together other "Code of Ethics" items building on this effort. Rome was not built in a single day.

RonBurgundy

Noon on Sundays.

grote15

I think the way Mike was running the breaks was fine---9 pm est with a pack limit for first 48 hours, etc...there will be some exceptions every now and then, but that template worked fine, IMO.

lahmejoon

I would say 9:30 pm eastern. Most of us on the west coast should either be home or have access to a computer by 6:30 pm. Some people may still be in transit at 6pm out here.

corvette1340

11 PM Hawaiian

aconte

I will pick 9:00 P.M. EST.

ThoseBackPages

10pm EST

Stooge

I second the noon on Sundays. I work PM shift and am not home alot when these group rips happen. Most people are off on sundays.

Paul.

70ToppsFanatic

So far the top vote getter has been the evening start, mostly at 9PM EST with a few slightly later. There have also been
a few votes for noon Sundays. Other than that there have been a few suggestions that were clearly not being made seriously
(e.g. 11PM Hawaiian Standard).

Please keep your input coming.

We'll move on to other "Code of Ethics" issues once we get this one a little more solidly nailed down.

Thanks

Dave

aconte

If we find a number of times that have some consensus, maybe we can do different times for different rips. For example, one rip starting in the evening around 9-9:30 P.M. and the next starting on Sunday at noon...etc....

Just a thought.

Like I said, I will accept whatever is decided. I don't have the funds to do most. Plus, my collecting focus is narrow these days. So keep the regulars happy!

Good ideas so far....

aconte

Toro

Maybe preset days on a weekly basis. BBCE would have to be informed so that their product could be set aside(within reason, of couse). Obviously, the most important factor would be when the product is added to the website. Most of the rips occur when new product hits the BBCE website. Say they update the site with new product on Thursday or Friday, interest can be worked out with BBCE and on the forum, the product set aside by BBCE(similar to what he did with the 75 case), and all that are interested would know it starts on Sunday at noon. Be there or be square! If they update on Monday or Tuesday, a Wednesday at 9:00 EST would suffice. So I say Wednesday at 9EST(for interest Mon/Tues/Wed) AND Sunday at Noon for interest on Thu/Fri/Sat(Although, I dont think they update the site on weekends).

uyu906

Noon - Eastern Time - Monday-Friday

grote15

I think whatever time it is, it should be after working hours as not everyone has internet access during the day. As I said earlier, when Mike was coordinating the rips, they worked very well with a start time of 9 pm est. I don't see why we should change that. BBCE, btw, does update site on weekends, too.

Toro

<< <i>they worked very well with a start time of 9 pm est. I don't see why we should change that >>



Specific days in the week would be beneficial to all above the 9PMEST. That way, there is no question as to when the next one is(if there is one).

cpamike

<< <i>I think the way Mike was running the breaks was fine---9 pm est with a pack limit for first 48 hours, etc...there will be some exceptions every now and then, but that template worked fine, IMO. >>



I've stayed on the sidelines with Steve (not Hart) so far , but I think that Tim hit it on the head that if it's not broke don't fix it. I helped out Mike when work would allow me and it is not easy, but went pretty smoothly IMHO. I believe that 9pm EST was probably a bit to early as I've been caught in traffic many times and think that 9:30 or 10:00pm is the time which most people would be able to participate. Sundays are difficult for people with kids as there is always some type of event, sporting or otherwise, that inhibits one from getting to a computer without the wrath of the significant other (who in my case is Italian...get my draft).

I will now return to the sidelines (better known as work).

miklia

how about a 24 hour window and then random draw of those interested for the slots? then timing doesn't matter, and there's lots of free and transparent selection/order sites online, thanks to fantasy sports leagues..

cincyredlegs

I agree with 9pm EST for group rips.

I would like to chime in and say there could be an exception where we would deviate from this. For example, I organized one the first group rip at 11:00 pm that some people had an issue with. In this case, it was a case of 75 Topps BB racks. We had talked about it for a few hours before and decided to start the rip at 11:00 because numerous people felt like the case would have been sold if we waited for the next day. If I could have done it different, I would have limited the racks to 1/person vs 2/person.

Maybe I am complicating things....I hope not. I think the scenario I have listed should be a rare exception and not the rule.

Mark

grote15

Mark is absolutely correct. If we had waited on that 75 rack box, it would have sold out.

jwgators

<< <i>Mark is absolutely correct. If we had waited on that 75 rack box, it would have sold out. >>



These might be dumb questions, but did it really matter if the "official" thread to break the rack box had started that night or the next day? Doesn't it matter more when BBCE gets the email and decides to hold the box/case for the group? If someone went on the site to buy before BBCE got the email and agreed to the 10% discount, wouldn't the group rip have been hosed? (BTW, I was lucky enough to get in on the 75 racks)

Having never organized a group rip, does BBCE say it has to have a certain amount of interest before they pull the box/case from the website?
Does BBCE require that the group rip be closed out in a certain amount of time or the boxes/cases go back up for the general public?

Just curious as those questions may matter in the timing/scheduling of the rips.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>Mark is absolutely correct. If we had waited on that 75 rack box, it would have sold out. >>



Good discussion so far. Keep it coming.

As for timing, just remember that there is a difference between when we officially start accepting requests on the thread
and when we make a commitment to Steve that we will do a break. IMO Steve has always been good enough to work with
us. He never has said that if we don't "fill up" by a certain time then he will pull out on the effort. I think he'd be reasonably
willing to allow us to make a commitment and then get the acceptances started within 24-36 hours so that it is reasonably
fair and open to all members of this community on an equal basis.

mdkuom

9 or 10 Eastern works the best for me as well

cincyredlegs

<< <i>

<< <i>Mark is absolutely correct. If we had waited on that 75 rack box, it would have sold out. >>



These might be dumb questions, but did it really matter if the "official" thread to break the rack box had started that night or the next day? Doesn't it matter more when BBCE gets the email and decides to hold the box/case for the group? If someone went on the site to buy before BBCE got the email and agreed to the 10% discount, wouldn't the group rip have been hosed? (BTW, I was lucky enough to get in on the 75 racks)

Having never organized a group rip, does BBCE say it has to have a certain amount of interest before they pull the box/case from the website?
Does BBCE require that the group rip be closed out in a certain amount of time or the boxes/cases go back up for the general public?

Just curious as those questions may matter in the timing/scheduling of the rips. >>




Joel - You make a very good point that I didn't think about. I guess I could have asked Steve to hold the box and we would start the group rip the next day. I am assuming he would have said yes, I think. Maybe that is the answer to my "exception".......

Mark

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Mark is absolutely correct. If we had waited on that 75 rack box, it would have sold out. >>



These might be dumb questions, but did it really matter if the "official" thread to break the rack box had started that night or the next day? Doesn't it matter more when BBCE gets the email and decides to hold the box/case for the group? If someone went on the site to buy before BBCE got the email and agreed to the 10% discount, wouldn't the group rip have been hosed? (BTW, I was lucky enough to get in on the 75 racks)

Having never organized a group rip, does BBCE say it has to have a certain amount of interest before they pull the box/case from the website?
Does BBCE require that the group rip be closed out in a certain amount of time or the boxes/cases go back up for the general public?

Just curious as those questions may matter in the timing/scheduling of the rips. >>




Joel - You make a very good point that I didn't think about. I guess I could have asked Steve to hold the box and we would start the group rip the next day. I am assuming he would have said yes, I think. Maybe that is the answer to my "exception".......

Mark >>



That was my point above too. Steve will work with us.

grote15

Steve will definitely work and has worked with us without question. However, as evidenced by the sale of the 72 series 1 wax box, he will take a sale at full retail price if someone uses that option while discussion is taking place.

Beck6

What about having a time when the 10% discount does not apply for like 24 hours and then opening it up to the masses? This would allow everyone to see what is going up and if you really want something you can get in early for a premium.

thenavarro

I don't think there should be an official standing start time. Whoever goes through the trouble of organizing and coordinating a group rip, should set whatever time and terms that is most appropriate to them.

Mike

daddymc

<< <i>I don't think there should be an official standing start time. Whoever goes through the trouble of organizing and coordinating a group rip, should set whatever time and terms that is most appropriate to them.

Mike >>



My thoughts exactly Mike.

If someone is unhappy about the way a group rip was handled, then they should take the initiative to run the next break. Having personally run a group rip for a case of '79 vending boxes, I can tell you it's not as easy as you think and no matter what you do, someone will be left out and unhappy.

Sportsamerica

I vote for whoever is running it makes the call, they have the work to keep updated, follow up etc..

leadoff4

9:00 p.m. EST works as does Sundays at noon. These are by far the best options.

70ToppsFanatic

Looks like the vast majority want somewhere in the neigborhood of 9-10PM EST. There are a few who want noon Sundays and then a
pair that vote for whenever the person running it says so.

Looks like consensus is that official start time for Accepting requests is between 9:00PM-10:00PM EST so why don't we meet in the middle
at 9:30PM EST?

Next part of this question is whether there should be at least a 24 hour notice period prior to 9:30PM EST when we start accepting requests?
So if we wanted to start a new rip right now, then an official thread could go up any time but the first accepted request would not be valid
until the next 9:30PM EST that is at least 24 hours after the official thread gets posted.

Please let's get your thoughts on this. Perhaps we could make it at least 12 hour notice period instead of 24 hours? The main idea is to
eliminate the possibility of people who are in different time zones being unfairly disadvantaged/advantaged.

Thanks

Dave

aconte

After reading this thread, I hope we allow for exceptions like the 75 topps rack box we had. If we get to cute with this and an item like that becomes available
we will need to jump on it. I would hate to lose something like that.

Also, I say no dice to waiting 24 hours. Just do it.

aconte

calicrippler

Please no "reserves" from previous threads concerning group rips. Everyone must post on the actual thread.

grote15

Dave,

We've already pretty much used the 24 hour rule for most group rips, but I also agree that it's really up to the person who wants to assume responsibility.

hhmag70

How may group breaks have been done here? 100's maybe a 1,000 and all of the sudden the system is flawed? There is no need for an extreme overhaul to something that is not broken.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>Dave,

We've already pretty much used the 24 hour rule for most group rips, but I also agree that it's really up to the person who wants to assume responsibility. >>



Tim, the question is whether there should be a minimum notice
Period prior to starting the accepting of requests? More than a few
Have expressed a desire to see this as a way to give equal
Opportunity to all.

Let's hear what the concensus opinion on this is.

grote15

How may group breaks have been done here? 100's maybe a 1,000 and all of the sudden the system is flawed? There is no need for an extreme overhaul to something that is not broken.

I gotta say I agree with this statement. And as Paul stated, discussing start times is a good idea, but we've been doing these rips for years now, and by and large they have been coordinated efficiently and successfully so I don't know what we're really trying to revamp here? Those of you who remember the old days, we had no pack limits and people would just grab as many packs as they wanted, and we had some discussion about that which resulted in the 2-pack limit rule for most rips and a start time of 9 pm est when Mike was coordinating the rips. I think that model was fine as it was, truthfully, but again, it's really up to the person who takes the initiative and assumes the responsibility of organizing the rip.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>How may group breaks have been done here? 100's maybe a 1,000 and all of the sudden the system is flawed? There is no need for an extreme overhaul to something that is not broken. >>



You don't think things are somewhat broken when there are
Regular complaints about starting time putting some people
At a disadvantage?

You don't believe that there is room for improvement when
Out of 7 boxes of 36 packs only 26 people out of a lot more
Than that get to participate (and some of these folks got to
"double up" with slots in more than 1 box)?

I disagree. Discussing it and trying to put in place a simple
Set of concensus ideas that the vast majority feel are fair certainly
Seems reasonable. Do you Prefer the risk of the possibility
that Neal (leadoff4) suggested?

daddymc

Dave, no offense, but you've been here like a month and now you've appointed yourself the group rip ethics president/moderator?

We've done dozens and dozens of successful group rips over the years. Can they improve? Sure, but they are what they are.

You can set all the rules you want, but if I see something I want, and I take the initiative to contact Steve and organize a group rip, I will do it when time allows me. You can respect that or choose not to participate. I respect the rules others set when they take the initiative to organize a group rip. Can you?

leathtech

<< <i>Dave, no offense, but you've been here like a month and now you've appointed yourself the group rip ethics president/moderator?

We've done dozens and dozens of successful group rips over the years. Can they improve? Sure, but they are what they are.

You can set all the rules you want, but if I see something I want, and I take the initiative to contact Steve and organize a group rip, I will do it when time allows me. You can respect that or choose not to participate. I respect the rules others set when they take the initiative to organize a group rip. Can you? >>



I agree 100% with this... most rips sit around for days before they sell out. The fun for me of this board is to login at random times and see what has taken place. I've missed out on my share of rips that I wanted in on... Basically if you want to make sure you get in I'd suggest running the rip, Steve is super easy to work with. Normally all it takes is an e-mail to confirm the product is still in stock.

Personally I don't think we need rules to run rips... I live by rules all the time - I don't need them in my hobby (drug) of choice.

70ToppsFanatic

Offense taken. You feel free to collect people's feelings on this
If you feel that it is not being collected and reported on the up
And up.

The code of ethics was not my idea. All I did was offer to post
The thread and summarize the results to try and get it done. Whether
Anyone chooses to follow it is certainly up to them.

That being said, I fail to see what scares people about trying
To be fair and give equal opportunity to all. I think Neal (leadoff4) is dead on
In his assessment of what will happen if even a small number
Of people feel there is an inequity in access. That would be a sad
Outcome Indeed!

I stand by what I said when this first began. Working together
To foster common enjoyment of a mutual pastime is to be admired
We'll never Satisfy everyone, but shouldnt the goal be to
Minimize potential inequities?

aconte

<< <i>Dave, no offense, but you've been here like a month and now you've appointed yourself the group rip ethics president/moderator?

We've done dozens and dozens of successful group rips over the years. Can they improve? Sure, but they are what they are.

You can set all the rules you want, but if I see something I want, and I take the initiative to contact Steve and organize a group rip, I will do it when time allows me. You can respect that or choose not to participate. I respect the rules others set when they take the initiative to organize a group rip. Can you? >>



+1

Dave , I appreciate all your input and some great ideas to help to keep things fair. But, I say let's not get crazy here. Set a time and run with it.....

aconte

aconte

<< <i>We'll never Satisfy everyone, but shouldnt the goal be to
Minimize potential inequities? >>



No!

Signed,

a guy who has been here longer than a month....much longer.....

gemint

The only rule I care about is that the packs must ship from BBCE directly to the buyers. After the Gary debacle, I'll never participate in a group rip again that is shipped from a forum member. Sorry to those of you who are honest but one bad apple spoils the barrel.

70ToppsFanatic

<< <i>

<< <i>We'll never Satisfy everyone, but shouldnt the goal be to
Minimize potential inequities? >>



No!

Signed,

a guy who has been here longer than a month....much longer..... >>



Seniority does not change the facts, but it's a free country so
Think what you wish. I've already lived by my beliefs and will
Continue to do so. I suggest you and anyone else of your mindset
Take a step back and ask yourselves why you are afraid to hear
The ideas of your peers on how to improve the experience for
The overall community.

The thread is ceded to anyone who cares to take it from here.