A Crusty Bust Quarter for my Type set arrived today ... grade posted pg2
pursuitofliberty
Posts: 6,782 ✭✭✭✭✭
Oh, and I'm digging her!
well, except for those hideous prongs
Anyway, your comments ... guess the grade ... information about my question below ... all would be appreciated
I have her down as a B-4, however I am slightly confussed about a reference in Browning (unfortunately I do not have the Tompkins reference or that might clear things up). Maybe one of the Bust Quarter pro's (or even Steve himself) can chime in and help me understand ...
Browning states that;
Die State I has an extra partial stripe at the left (mine does) and a long clear tongue (appears that mine does, but there's a lot of crust in there) ... and calls that extremely rare.
Die State III then defines the crack described by Browning, which I believe to be the one seen up through the C in the value, to the base of the olive branch.
In between, Die state II talkes about a reground die, with normal stripes and a small, faint tongue.
Any ideas why I have the attribute of I and III (I think) and not II?
The answer is probably obvious, but maybe not ...
Hope you are all having a great day!
well, except for those hideous prongs
Anyway, your comments ... guess the grade ... information about my question below ... all would be appreciated
I have her down as a B-4, however I am slightly confussed about a reference in Browning (unfortunately I do not have the Tompkins reference or that might clear things up). Maybe one of the Bust Quarter pro's (or even Steve himself) can chime in and help me understand ...
Browning states that;
Die State I has an extra partial stripe at the left (mine does) and a long clear tongue (appears that mine does, but there's a lot of crust in there) ... and calls that extremely rare.
Die State III then defines the crack described by Browning, which I believe to be the one seen up through the C in the value, to the base of the olive branch.
In between, Die state II talkes about a reground die, with normal stripes and a small, faint tongue.
Any ideas why I have the attribute of I and III (I think) and not II?
The answer is probably obvious, but maybe not ...
Hope you are all having a great day!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
0
Comments
I'll guess AU58.
Looks nice and original.
Lucanus
I couldn't spell Steve!
1. Die perfect
2. Die crack from rim through C2, stem & into left side of eagle below shield
3. Die lapped, tounge shorter, S2 clear of die lines
4. Die rust @ S2 & above right claw, light crack OF AM
5. Die Crack Rim, through left bottom serif of M to wing
6. 1st die crack continues through left side and wing of eagle to S1. Light cracks form between upper 2 arrowheads and between FA
7. Die lapped/ extra line by stripe 1 gone, small faint tongue? (no examples exist of this one)
Good luck!
I'll reveal NGC's grade, and my in hand assement a little later.
BaseballAbs ... thanks for your responses. It does not have the crack from the wing to the first M, but does have the crack from rim, through edge of C, to base of Olive Branch, although it is faint.
The part that is confussing me is the extra stripe in the shield (left side from edge to gules 1 and 2) ... if you have the 1992 edition of Browning, please note page 119 where it talks about the extra stripe. Is this common on this reverse die, or unusual.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I figured Steve's book might clear things up. This would appear then to be an early State 2 based on that information, as only the first crack exists and it is faint (but can be seen in the picture as well).
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Congrats!
JH
Proof Buffalo Registry Set
Capped Bust Quarters Registry Set
Proof Walking Liberty Halves Registry Set
I guess AU55.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Tom
55 would be acceptable as well
I think 58 would be a little much for the wear showing in the photos, but we all know that you can't grade by photos
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
BaseballAbs ... thanks for your responses. It does not have the crack from the wing to the first M, but does have the crack from rim, through edge of C, to base of Olive Branch, although it is faint.
The part that is confussing me is the extra stripe in the shield (left side from edge to gules 1 and 2) ... if you have the 1992 edition of Browning, please note page 119 where it talks about the extra stripe. Is this common on this reverse die, or unusual. >>
Here is my coin. The extra stripe I think your talking about is on it as well at the bottom of the horizontal stripes. I can see the same partial stripe on your coin. As far as what Browning is talking about, I have no clue. This would be a question for Steve. I have never seen nor understood what Browning is talking about with the partial stripe at left being so extremely rare. Unless we both have these extreme rare die states.
Here is my obverse, AU55. Yours appears to me to have stronger hair and stars a little more crisp than my AU55.
But that's just going off my coin and my pictures are not as clear as yours.
I like'er ALOT, 58 would not surprise me one bit, here's my one and only CBQ...........
PS I forgot I do have another CBQ but it's not worthy to post.
I do hope Steve stops by sometime to chime in, as I would be curious as to his take of the piece. I sent him a PM early today linking this thread.
I'll reveal the grade in another half hour or so, in case anyone else wants to comment before knowing
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
This was a purchase (win) for my mid-1800's type set ... and I am quite pleased with her. Ultimately, finding all the mid-century types in this condition, with this type of look would be ideal. I'll keep dreaming (and trying)!!
My assessment of the coin is it's a solid AU53 ... with wonderful original surface qualities and excellent protected luster.
Currently the coin is in an AU50 Holder, which seems pretty conservative (actually really conservative), especially for some of the NCS'd type stuff I see in their plastic (at this grade point).
I see no reason she was net'd down for anything, no hidden hairlines, no old cleaning, no surface damage. Maybe it was just a good day for an undergrade, or maybe the graders didn't like the two small "spots" near the tip of the left (facing) wing where some crustiness flaked off, leaving a brighter shade of surface exposed.
As has been discussed, sometimes they go one way, sometimes the other.
Either way, I really like her, and am happy to have picked her up, especially at the price I paid.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Browning states that;
Die State I has an extra partial stripe at the left (mine does) and a long clear tongue (appears that mine does, but there's a lot of crust in there) ... and calls that extremely rare.
Die State III then defines the crack described by Browning, which I believe to be the one seen up through the C in the value, to the base of the olive branch.
In between, Die state II talkes about a reground die, with normal stripes and a small, faint tongue.
Any ideas why I have the attribute of I and III (I think) and not II?
The answer is probably obvious, but maybe not ...
The main problem you have is in using an out of date reference…you should buy one of my books pronto!
When Breen and others updated the 1992 edition of Browning, Breen used his notes that he had been compiling since the early 1950’s. In many cases these notes either consisted of things that he remembered seeing or that were told to him. Unfortunately he really did not take the time to study each die marriage in depth when he made these notes or when the book was being done in the early 1990’s.
He also blindly added information that was presented in auction catalogs without verifying what was stated. A case in point is for the 1831 B-4 die marriage.
If you look at the 1992 work, it lists 4 die states (I prefer die stages myself as it is more accurate in describing the stages of die life).
DS I. Partial extra stripe at left; long clear tongue. 1982 ANA:492. Extremely rare
First of all, the “extra” stripe is not a die state or stage at all, but was engraved on the die, as the stripes and bars of the shield were all hand engraved on each working die. Second, “long clear tongue” is a bit ambiguous. In looking at my early DS example, the tongue is actually recut and is slightly forked.
The example he is citing was in the 1982 ANA sale, lot 492 auctioned by Steve Ivy, an MS60 proof-like. As stated in this catalog, the eagle has a tongue, whereas Browning states there is no tongue (this reverse die was also used in producing the more scarce B-3 die marriage as well). Well…Browning had it wrong, there was a tongue. Third, how Breen or anyone else decided this was rare is unknown. The fact that the eagle has a tongue and the extra stripe is there is certainly not rare in the least bit, in fact it is common, however the early DS with no die cracks must be rare, as no examples have been seen so far. That is why I have that die stage listed with a ?.
DS II. Normal stripes; small faint tongue; die reground to remove clash marks. WGC: 103.
I chose to put this die stage last in my book, because I have never seen it. In fact I have never seen any die clashes for this die marriage either. However, the way it is stated, this supposedly occurred before the die cracks! I find it strange that even the LDS coins with die cracks still show the extra stripe and the tongue looks the same to me. The WGC refers to the “ World’s Greatest Collection” sold by Abe Kosoff in 1945 Lot 103. I doubt that Breen ever saw this coin to compare it to any other example, such as the 1982 ANA piece.
DS III. Crack described by Browning. WGC: 104
Again, Breen never saw this coin and just used the catalog description to verify the die state.
DS IV. Patch of die rust at final S. Rare.
I did not list this die stage, because I could never locate a coin to verify it. Breen does not list a reference, so we don't know where he came up with this information. Either it is indeed very rare, or it does not exist. However there is a patch of die rust that develops on the obverse at the Cap.
Many times people see things on a coin that are not really part of the actually die, but look like they are. To be assured that something is actually part of the die that struck a coin, multiple examples need to be found that show the same feature or the progression of the feature. This mistake is made time and again and in many reference books, where the next author merely repeats what was written in a previous work. I tried very hard to only use what was previously written after I had verified that it was indeed accurate. This is not to say that I did not make mistakes, everyone does and no one is perfect in all they do, I just hope that the mistakes were more of omissions rather than adding things that do not exist.
As to the coin itself…Although the B-4 is the most common marriage found for 1831, it is a very nice example and I am surprised that NGC only gave it a 50. I would say that it should be at least a 55. I like it!
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
Superb coin. Great skin & look.