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What do REAL OBW Rolls look like?

rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just bought 5 rolls of 1953-S Lincolns from an original bag. Want you all to see that original rolls are not always (not usually...) pristine-looking. In fact, most of the rolls I have purchased that are verifiably original are pretty rough looking. This is the case with tube-wrapped rolls. Batdorf rolls (the ones with a "V" in the paper) are wrapped with a machine that tightly crimps both ends simultaneously and are usually very nice, tight and pristine. I'm showing here tube-wrapped rolls where the wrapper was machine-rolled, crimped nicely on one end, and then coins were added and the other end crimped. The second crimping is pretty hit or miss, and often "miss" in real OBW rolls.

Note these are BofA NT&SA rolls with proper date codes. The 4-52 means the tubes were made in April of 1952. There is one roll in the group that is 4-53 date code, so these were probably rolled in April or May 1953 when there was still stock of 4-52 tubes.

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Comments

  • homerunhallhomerunhall Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭
    Great pictures! Reminds me of the days 35/45 years ago when this stuff was around and pretty easy to find. Don't think I've seen original rolls like this in over 10 years (though I haven't really been looking). Thanks for the cool pics.

    hrh

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cool, always wondered if the V rolls had a name. BATDORF? No way!

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,875 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cool.
    I had an original 54-S roll I opened last year.
    I got two 66s out of it.
    Will you be opening any or just saving them?
  • Thanks for sharing!

    Could someone explain what "V" rolls are please?
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have two '43 rolls that have the one end 'not pristine', but looks better than those. Cheers, RickO
  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have two '43 rolls that have the one end 'not pristine', but looks better than those. Cheers, RickO >>



    Sure, lots of rolls look better than these. I'm not saying that rolls need to look bad to be original! What I'm saying is that they don't need to look good, and in fact from my experience if they look too good they are often late re-wraps. There was not too much care put in to make the rolls tight. Long as they held together to get to their destination, great. Of the various original bags I've opened, less than half the rolls in the bag were tight and well-wrapped.

    Some folks asked about the Batdorf "V" rolls. Batdorf patented a mechanical rolling machine in 1915, and that type of machine is still in use today. Here are some pics of a 55-S Batdorf roll. I chose one that is inscribed with the patent information.

    image

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    image

    image
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  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Cool.
    I had an original 54-S roll I opened last year.
    I got two 66s out of it.
    Will you be opening any or just saving them? >>



    I'm going to open one of them and put the other 4 away. Will let you know what I find.
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  • Great thread! Thanks for the info and photos.
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭
    For some time I've thought that the originality of a roll can only really be established while you are opening it and after it's opened. For several reasons. You can only compare the end coin with the interior coins after opening. Original end coins will almost always have mellowed or become downright toned. It's also helpful to pick the losest end apart and if it comes apart easily it's a likely sign that it's been unrolled before. But when you have to really pick and pick at the paper it's a pretty good indication you're the first guy/girl to go there.


    Original 39-S rolls. The paper reads Klopp Engineering, also company that produced coin rolling machines. These are in my opinion, as original as can be. But this hasn't stopped several collectors and even a dealer or two from turning up their nose because most rolls have one end tighter than the other. And this is exactly what the OP has asserted is normal for original rolls.

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    Here are original 53-D rolls. I know because I cherrypicked about 15 of them from the original bank box for the color of the end coins (which PCGS has happily graded for me). Both ends of these were only moderately tight and even somewhat smushed from being stored on end. However, when I tried to pick them open it was a lot of work because they had never been opened before. Each rolls has had quite a few PCGS 66RDs and there are enough unopened rolls left I haven't lost hope in a 67RD!
    image
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    This 37D roll I believe was put together by a more modern collector. I opened the roll and the coins were beautiful - I picked about 10 and they all went 66RD at PCGS and there are lots more. So modern rolls can still be quite nice - especially if the lot of coins weren't cherrypicked before they were rolled or if the roll was assembled by a collector for future use as I believe this one may have been.
    image
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    Furthermore, my experience with more modern rollers which crimps both ends tightly, is that they often leave the circular scarring on one or both of the end coins.
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    this is a great thread.

    we never EVER got shotgun rolls from the bank when I was little. Of course, we were in the middle of nowhere.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Awesome rolls. I particularly like the toners.

    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This 37D roll I believe was put together by a more modern collector. I opened the roll and the coins were beautiful - I picked about 10 and they all went 66RD at PCGS and there are lots more. So modern rolls can still be quite nice - especially if the lot of coins weren't cherrypicked before they were rolled or if the roll was assembled by a collector for future use as I believe this one may have been.

    Furthermore, my experience with more modern rollers which crimps both ends tightly, is that they often leave the circular scarring on one or both of the end coins. >>



    What are the markings on the 37D roll? You can usually tell if an OBW is faked by the bank markings, or on other markings on the wrapper. I've documented many cases of "OBW" rolls from a bank that did not exist at the time the coins were minted! The other rolls look very nice, but of course you are correct that it's hard to tell for sure unless you or someone you trust personally opened the bank bag or box the rolls came from, bought them from the bank, etc. Even when you open the roll you still can't be sure it was not re-wrapped. I've opened rolls I believed were faked (eg a 55-S roll from a bank that didn't exist til the early 60's) that were really nice inside, no fingerprints (a telltale sign of fakery...), even toning, etc. In some cases I suppose older mint bags of loose coins could have been rolled later, creating true OBW rolls...
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  • chumleychumley Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭✭
    is it considered bad form to say.....YOU HAVE NICE ROLLS!!!!!!!!!!
  • icsoccericsoccer Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭
    Excellent Thread!image
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  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was buying OBW silver rolls off ebay a few years ago, and I tried to look closely at the seller pics for any end roller toned coins. Here are a few:

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage

    imageimage
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  • homerunhallhomerunhall Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭

    If you guys post any more original roll pictures I'm gonna start crying.

    hrh

  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If you guys post any more original roll pictures I'm gonna start crying.

    hrh >>



    Sorry, gotta do it...here's my haul from the last 2 road trips...

    image
    PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:

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  • << <i>

    << <i>I have two '43 rolls that have the one end 'not pristine', but looks better than those. Cheers, RickO >>



    Sure, lots of rolls look better than these. I'm not saying that rolls need to look bad to be original! What I'm saying is that they don't need to look good, and in fact from my experience if they look too good they are often late re-wraps. There was not too much care put in to make the rolls tight. Long as they held together to get to their destination, great. Of the various original bags I've opened, less than half the rolls in the bag were tight and well-wrapped.

    Some folks asked about the Batdorf "V" rolls. Batdorf patented a mechanical rolling machine in 1915, and that type of machine is still in use today. Here are some pics of a 55-S Batdorf roll. I chose one that is inscribed with the patent information.

    I learned something new... Thank you

    Tom
  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This 37D roll I believe was put together by a more modern collector. I opened the roll and the coins were beautiful - I picked about 10 and they all went 66RD at PCGS and there are lots more. So modern rolls can still be quite nice - especially if the lot of coins weren't cherrypicked before they were rolled or if the roll was assembled by a collector for future use as I believe this one may have been.

    Furthermore, my experience with more modern rollers which crimps both ends tightly, is that they often leave the circular scarring on one or both of the end coins. >>



    What are the markings on the 37D roll? You can usually tell if an OBW is faked by the bank markings, or on other markings on the wrapper. I've documented many cases of "OBW" rolls from a bank that did not exist at the time the coins were minted! The other rolls look very nice, but of course you are correct that it's hard to tell for sure unless you or someone you trust personally opened the bank bag or box the rolls came from, bought them from the bank, etc. Even when you open the roll you still can't be sure it was not re-wrapped. I've opened rolls I believed were faked (eg a 55-S roll from a bank that didn't exist til the early 60's) that were really nice inside, no fingerprints (a telltale sign of fakery...), even toning, etc. In some cases I suppose older mint bags of loose coins could have been rolled later, creating true OBW rolls... >>



    There were no bank markings, only the denomination and the monetary value of the roll. Then there was a six digit red ink number.

    ??
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,875 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimage



    imageimageCoppercolor
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    image

    From the mid 1950’s all the way back to 1900, many paper shotgun shells were roll-crimped with a disk inserted in the end to denote the shot size. The coins being rolled from this era also resembled shotgun roll crimps, hence the name.
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  • CoppercolorCoppercolor Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭


    << <i>image

    From the mid 1950’s all the way back to 1900, many paper shotgun shells were roll-crimped with a disk inserted in the end to denote the shot size. The coins being rolled from this era also resembled shotgun roll crimps, hence the name. >>



    Thanks Swampboy, 53-D are nearly impossible to find with color - save for one mint set coin that Pawpaul sent my way I've never seen one. So these have been a pleasure. Someday I'll image them in their PCGS holders - might be kind of a cool collage - end toned lincolns. They're a rowdy lot with carbon and spots and wild colors!

    Cool pic Woodenjefferson,
    My heart-rate jumped even though I know those aren't lincolns in there!
    Jeff
    I'd like my copper well done please!
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From my view, REAL OBW rolls look like they might make great bulk submissions. But that's the marketer and speculator thinking, and not necessarily the cherrypicker or numismatist.
    Forgive me.
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1939S OBW rolls...Very nice!image
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

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  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    all of those rolls look cool


    I think I may start a picture of coin collection

    cheaper and less chance of theft

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