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2009 Small Date ??

Has anyone noticed the 2009 Formative "SMALL DATE" version?

I've found them in a bank roll. They were easy to pick out from the normal coins in the roll.

They're noticeable with the naked eye, and can easily be seen.

At first I thought maybe it was a weak strike, but when compared to "normal" coins; all other elements were as strongly struck and detailed.

Under magnification, it looks like the zeros have a larger center, and the 2009 looks thinner overall.

I've searched thousands of these coins, and these are definitely different somehow.

I don't have a camera for pictures. Maybe someone else has noticed these that has a camera.

I'd like to get some theories before I spend the money on a camera.

Anyone else?

Comments

  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    How about some pictures.

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What? Another Formative Variety? Arrrrrgggggggg....


    Just kidding. I'm with you. Get a camera.
    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    need a side-by-side photo comparison
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,388 ✭✭✭

    ...how about a scan, papi? image
    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You dont have a camera? All these posts...all these varieties, all this controversy..and YOU dont have a camera?

    wake up son, this is 2010. digital photography is a breeze.
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • GrumpyEdGrumpyEd Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭
    A thick vs thin date could be from the hubbing of one die.

    We need some pics next to a normal one to say.
    Ed

  • What he said.....image
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭


    << <i>What he said.....image >>



    Then buy me a camera, just so you can see.

    I asked if anyone saw a similar thing.
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭


    << <i>A thick vs thin date could be from the hubbing of one die.

    We need some pics next to a normal one to say. >>




    How could it be hubbing, if it didn't affect the whole die?

    Like I said, only the date is different.


    If you saw one, you wouldn't need my pic. You'd know yourself.

    That's why I'm asking; "has anyone else seen this?"


    Based on the pic requests, thus far, I'd say NO
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,388 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>A thick vs thin date could be from the hubbing of one die.

    We need some pics next to a normal one to say. >>




    How could it be hubbing, if it didn't affect the whole die?

    Like I said, only the date is different.


    If you saw one, you wouldn't need my pic. You'd know yourself.

    That's why I'm asking; "has anyone else seen this?"


    Based on the pic requests, thus far, I'd say NO >>



    ...i don't think you understand why we want a pic. WE WANT TO SEE IT!!!!! that way we could critique it,

    savvy? image







    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    hate to spoil the party but, if there were small and large date `09 1c we would already
    know about it. it maybe a case of die-wear and/or striking pressure that makes one
    date appear smaller than another.
    image
    to add: i hope to be proven wrong
    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>hate to spoil the party but, if there were small and large date `09 1c we would already
    know about it. it maybe a case of die-wear and/or striking pressure that makes one
    date appear smaller than another.
    image
    to add: i hope to be proven wrong
    image >>



    I was thinking perhaps overpolished die myself.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ClosedLoopClosedLoop Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭
    these are philly coins we are talkin' bout right?
    figglehorn
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do the digits have a different shape (like the 1960 small vs. large date) or are they just thinner? If they are just thinner, that would explain why the inside of the zero appears larger.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • ManorcourtmanManorcourtman Posts: 7,891 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>hate to spoil the party but, if there were small and large date `09 1c we would already
    know about it. it maybe a case of die-wear and/or striking pressure that makes one
    date appear smaller than another.
    image
    to add: i hope to be proven wrong
    image >>



    I was thinking perhaps overpolished die myself.
    TD >>



    image Agree 100%. Optical allusion.

  • Then buy me a camera, just so you can see.

    Easy big fella, I'm on your side.....image
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hmmmm....
    Maybe ask Daniel Carr if he has made any small date 2009 cents....since there were none minted (we would have heard about it by now), maybe he decided to make some for the "fantasy" of it image

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'd like to get some theories before I spend the money on a camera.

    I'd like to get some theories before I spend the money on a camera. >>



    I would think that John Wexler, James Wiles and Billy Crawford would have noticed this before now and quite frankly, without pictures it would be difficult to form a theory.

    The dies for these coins all came, presumably, from a single master hub.

    For reference, the process is as follows:

    Galvano or CNC output to Master Hub (positive image) to Master Die (negative image) to Working Hub (positive) to Working Die (negative)

    Die doubling occurs during the creation of the Working Hub or Working Die phase of the operation.

    IMO, for a true "Small Date" version to exist there would have to have been a second generation of the Master Hub.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>hate to spoil the party but, if there were small and large date `09 1c we would already
    know about it. it maybe a case of die-wear and/or striking pressure that makes one
    date appear smaller than another.
    image
    to add: i hope to be proven wrong
    image >>



    I was thinking perhaps overpolished die myself.
    TD >>

    That is a distinct possibility but wouldn't the coin also exhibit a smaller LIBERTY and IN GOD WE TRUST and/or some serious die scratching?
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Until we see pictures, who knows what we got???
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ill build you a camera image

    image
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ill build you a camera image

    image
  • pitbosspitboss Posts: 8,643 ✭✭✭

    Nice camera!!!

    That one probably takes better pictures than my cool pix does.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Ill build you a camera image

    image >>



    You live in a cave there buddy?? image
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The workshop is part of a 150 year old winery building with 12 pane windows and 18 inch thick stone walls. Magnificent place!
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks cool even in the summer I bet, But any one have any pic of this coin? image


    Hoard the keys.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looked at all seven of mine and no thin dates. image Cheers, RickO
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    Well, it looks like I'm not the only one that noticed the difference.

    Here's your photos. There's a definite difference. The inside area of the zeros appears much wider, and the entire date thinner.

    Yet the rest of the design seems to be the same; letters of Liberty & IGWT, beard etc.

    Here's a link. The listing is not mine. So, again, I'm not the only one that noticed.


    2009 Formative Small Date
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,388 ✭✭✭

    ...(i'm forming a thought, be right back)
    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • image
    MT
  • DuPapaDuPapa Posts: 495 ✭✭
    imageimage
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    Thanks for the side by side. Too bad these were not shot at the same time and same angle.

    However, it accurately shows the difference in the date. This is visible with the naked eye.

    It is not an abraded die. The lines and numbers are crisp and clear. There are no polishing marks near the date or in the field. This die is in its original state.
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You need to shoot them at the same angle, same lighting, same focal length. then put them in Photoshop with a 50% transparency overlay.
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    Sorry, these are not my pictures and it is not my listing.

    I have these coins, but I don't have camera equipment to shoot these. This was discussed earlier in this thread.
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do you know if the small date come from the mint boxes, sets, or out of bank boxes?
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    The ones I found were in bank rolls.

    I wish I had the camera equipment to put this side by side request to rest, but I don't.

    That's why I posted the link to this ebay listing. At least you can see what I'm seeing. There is a definite difference in the date.

    When I found these it jumped out at me like a 55 DDO, it was that obviously different from the other coins in the roll.
  • loro1rojoloro1rojo Posts: 266 ✭✭✭
    There pictures aren't clear enough to show much of anything.

    -Gabe
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,388 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The ones I found were in bank rolls.

    I wish I had the camera equipment to put this side by side request to rest, but I don't.

    That's why I posted the link to this ebay listing. At least you can see what I'm seeing. There is a definite difference in the date.

    When I found these it jumped out at me like a 55 DDO, it was that obviously different from the other coins in the roll. >>



    ...perhaps you'll get a nice camera for christmas and then you can shoot some nice examples for us. image
    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • DuPapaDuPapa Posts: 495 ✭✭
    Papi...
    If you want, mail one of each to me and I'll image them for you and send the back... you need to turn on your PM option though so I can give you my address.
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭


    << <i>Papi...
    If you want, mail one of each to me and I'll image them for you and send the back... you need to turn on your PM option though so I can give you my address. >>



    Thanks for the offer. PM is on now
  • DuPapaDuPapa Posts: 495 ✭✭
    PM sent.....
  • I think he had to much to drink..image and is seeing things
  • PapiPapi Posts: 1,189 ✭✭
    Well, it's not my listing. I don't know what he's drinkin'; but I'm dry

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the top of the "2" looks a bit different. the one on the right seems to curve in more,

    but better pictures in better light and taken at the same angle will tell the true tale.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • I wonder if is something common!!
    MT


  • << <i>...(i'm forming a thought, be right back) >>




    Well what happened to that thought? Could'nt get it to the front of the pack!! image
    Positive:
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