How do you value "genuine" coins?

Bustdollar59

Seems like everyday someone writes about a coin coming back either bodybagged or with a genuine holder. My question is: If I were interested in a coin in a upcoming auction that received a genuine holder for questionable color how does that affect the value? The coin is still worth $$, but what percentage of the value of a graded coin is it? I have never purchased a Gen. so I don't have any experience with this. I look forward to a lively discussion!
Thanks,
Mike

Onedollarnohollar

25% of it's net grade value

AUandAG

Certainly depends on the coin and HOW BAD I NEED IT. If I have to have it, it will sell
for more that book. If I don't need it, it will sell for half price.

Seriously, what coin are you thinking about? Is it ultra rare or common?

A series that is highly collected or one that few collect?

too many questions to give a good answer.

bob

speety

The only genuine coin in our collection happens to be the most expensive. There is no one answer to this question as Bob pointed out, depending on how badly AT'd is the coin? How rare is the coin? etc.

COALPORTER

Maybe as high as 50% net grade. I wouldn't pay more, because you will get dinged on resale. Unless you think it has a chance to get regraded and come away in a real holder, which does happen. (i am told)

Baley

Not to seem glib, but It all depends on what kind of coin and what the coin looks like.

I think to myself, would I rather have this coin (with genuineness in damage, color, surfaces, whatever is wrong with it) or a lower graded, generally accepted as problem free coin.

So, if it's, for example, an old coin with VF detail, but a big hole, I might value it as a VG, meaning I'd rather have this nice detail and surfaces, with the hole, than a worn-to-VG-but-no-other-damage coin of the same type and date, but would rather have a nice Fine than this one.



Since you specifically mention Genuine for questionable color, I'm assuming it's a more recent coin than 200 years old and it's probably Unc.
The same math would apply, what does the coin grade without the defect, how much does it hurt the eye appeal, and how low would I have to go before I'd prefer the coin over problem free. Hell, maybe it's worth more outside a Genuine slab if the color is reasonably plausible. If it were obviously fake color, it wouldn't be "questionable", it would be "artificial toning" or "altered surface" code, wouldn't it?

RedTiger

Depends on the coin, depends on the problem, depends on the look, depends on the chance of getting into a no problem holder on a retry.

As with any pricing, auction archives, can be a good place to get an idea. For toners, the auction price can be all over the place. Let me be Captain Obvious by pointing out that the hammer price at auction is set by the top two bidders. This means that all the other bidders are placing a lower price. So if the responders to the thread were the bidders, the top two replies would set the hammer price. If a person isn't willing to pay that high, they aren't going to win. Some replying may never win a problem coin in open auction.

Another thing to consider is that problem coins are easy to buy, not so easy to sell. Some collectors don't want them at all. Dealers often cut their cash bids way back if offered such coins, more so if they are relatively common coins. If a collector mostly sells to dealers, they can anticipate a significant haircut when buying problem coins at auction, and selling at wholesale to a dealer.

MrEureka

Here's one way to do it. Look at the problem coin and assume you already own it. Now, consider the lowest problem-free grade of the same issue that you would seriously consider taking in trade for your coin, even up. (Forget about the money. Focus on the coins.) It's easy enough to figure the value of the lower-grade problem-free coin. And the higher-grade problem coin should be worth roughly the same amount, at least to you.

Bustdollar59

Baley: The coin is a draped bust dollar. The coin would be graded AU 55+ and has good eye appeal. Graded the coin would be a $10-12K coin.

DennisH

I value them brutally low, because I am not interested in them.

Baley

Baley: The coin is a draped bust dollar. The coin would be graded AU 55+ and has good eye appeal. Graded the coin would be a $10-12K coin.

Interesting; does it look anything like your avatar? high grade bust dollars are prone to being dipped and then retoning of various combinations of lucky nature or skillful nurture.

If attractive to very attractive, it could bring AU money at auction. Maybe less, maybe more, it all really depends on if the bidders likes it as it is or want to try again (either resubmission, cracking allowing some more toning in an envelope or something, orstripping and trying again with the toning) note I'm not advocating anything, just describing the market for such pieces. As other responders have noted, there are those who won't even consider a coin only slabbed "genuine", even at a steep discount.

golfer72

If the coin is nice and I feel PCGS got it wrong I would value it at about 75% of a graded example ( ie the grade I give the coin)

ricko

You can price it at whatever you feel the market will bear. The true value will not be known until you have a buyer(s). A coin is worth what someone will pay, no more. Price it realistically - valued at YOUR perceived price, then see what offers you receive. Cheers, RickO

MidLifeCrisis

As others have said, it really does depend on the coin.

I don't think it's a good idea to decide that all "genuine" coins are worth X percent of the value of the same coin in a graded holder. If you are unwilling to pay more in some cases, you may miss out on owning a nice coin.

By the same token, you may think that a particular genuine coin is worth less than the percentage you would normally pay for other genuine coins.

I know that, generally, I would be willing to pay more for a genuine Chain Cent or Pine Tree Shilling than I would for a common date Morgan Dollar.

ambro51

I have a very mixed reaction to the Genuine holder. First, it DOES one thing very well....tells the owner (and potential buyer) that the coin is 'genuine' and that there is a specific problem. It does not go into detail if there are several issues...such as cleaned, bent, tooled etc etc...., but rather will list what they view as the significant issue. How PCGS values the coin within its own Registry is rather unfair, in my opinion. To give such a coin only the basal value, of PO01 is an insult to their own holder, and a factor which keeps values under what they COULD be. NGC, on the other hand...allows 1/2 the net grade point value in their registry, though they DO NOT allow pcgs gennies in at all. So all of us registry collectors, especially those who use both sides of the street, are really done a disservice by the lack of any net grade on the Genuine holder.

For the most part, I feel that the genuine holder is a value killer. Others may argue, but the very question that the OP has raised is a main factor here. Placing valuation in the hands of the collectors gives us NO basis whatsoever on a consistant level to evaluate the coin. Of course, an auction situation will resolve this, but only in the case of a coin which is of widespread interst and has enough specimens in genuine holders to create a value base (rare early copper comes to mind here).

While I am on this subject, another factor which though not related to value...is the lack of inclusion in the population numbers of Genuine slabbed coins. How much 'work' would it be for PCGS to create this slot in the pop reports? Probably very little work...but it would give collectors of very low population coins a very valuable piece of information.

I only have ONE genuine holdered coin, and that happens to be one of the rarest and most significant coins in the gold dollar series, the 1856-D. I remember taking a real drubbing from certain forum members for its purchase, but also remember a few who seen the value here and encouraged me to purchase. So, for $1499 I now have a coin in the collection which I grade AU50-AU55....which is an 8-12K coin in those grades. The problem? Code 82 Filed Rims...which means at some point the reeding no doubt had some solder from a mount which has been removed. Though, I cant be sure of this because any change from the minted condition is now hidden within the gasket of the holder. Would I buy it all over again? You bet I would...with only maybe 60-80 surviving pieces, it is offered so infrequently that this example may be my ONLY opportunity to fill that slot at anywhere near that price...ever. I certainly would like to get a higher registry value for it, thats for sure!

Walkerguy21D

I was (and still am) uncertain how to value 'genuine' coins - like others have said, generally well below book value.
In the case of a 1799 cent I purchased recently, I sent scans to several of the copper guys on the forum to get their opinions as to value, prior to acquiring it. When the time came to make the purchase, the asking price was well below the values of the respected opinions (but still nearly four figures!), so that made the decision much easier. Most of the known genuine 1799 cents do have problems, and it has been authenticated by both Bob Grellman and Chris McAwley, among others, so this is a problem coin I don't mind owning.

Mowgli

Some dealers have said that they are clueless as to why certain coins come back Genuine when they see nothing wrong with the coin. We already know that people argue over TPG assignment of grades so why wouldn't there be some of the same arguments over the Genuine assignment? They break the coins out and sell them to customers who see (or don't see) what they do. Not everyone has to have coins slabbed. Looking at the auction news out of the Liberty Seated Collectors Club shows many people spend good money on early 1870s cc material most of which is horrible. For the majority of Internet buyers the TPGs offer a lot of insurance against getting cheated so I am not dismissing the need for a Genuine holder. It just seems that when a coin looks nice in the holder people tend not to discount them very much. Bottom line to me is that one pays what the coin is worth for the condition it is in with whatever problems it has - we expect all coins to be genuine so the holders is just affirmation that it is - I do not see that it makes it less valuable. If the coin has problems it will be discounted regardless. The Genuine holder just alerts people that a TPG thinks there is something wrong with the coin.

SeaEagleCoins

Just because the coin resides in a so-called problem holder DOES NOT mean it belongs in that holder... any more than a coin in a "regular" holder always belongs in that holder...

With Questionable Color... and Altered Surfaces and Improperly Cleaned ... these opinions can and do change over different submissions... like it or not .. that is the reality... (note that this new technology with secure plus may minimize the opinion changes... time will tell)


BUY THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER ... and how to value it is about as subjective as grading... just look at some of the moon prices folks are willing to spend... and when it is time to sell, they either find another moonwalker or take a loss...

I always try to remember that the "true' value of anything... is based soley on an agreement between involved parties... it is not an absolute that is carved in stone (and even a stone can erode or crack over time )

astrorat

<< <i>25% of it's net grade value >>



Really? Do you have any PCGS "Genuine" twenty-cent pieces you would like to sell? I'll take them all.

Lane

Onedollarnohollar

No, don't own any "genuine" holdered coins. I was just giving a blanket answer to the op's question. Obviously, as stated by others here, there will be exceptions for rarity but I thought the question was how

much generally does the "genuine" label effect value vs. a problem free graded coin. Since I don't have the budget to purchase the rarities, my evaluation is based on the more common coins which would not hold

a premium for most.

scottgardener

I think the NGC system of details grading (which follows ANACS and ICG) with half the equivalent grade in set registry point value makes sense. I also agree that giving Genuine-only coins only one point in the PCGS set registry--treating them as if they were P01 graded--is unfair. A coin that is uncirculated but has a prominent scratch should be worth more than one that is both heavily worn--the equivalent of AG3--and bent or corroded. And, there is a lot of in-between.

My hunch is that problem coins are bargains right now. (That is, coins that have been properly identified as having problems, as opposed to all the doctored coins out there waiting to suck value out of the market and peoples' collections) An XF Draped Bust Eagle runs maybe $8000-9000, whereas one certified "genuine not gradeable" but AU to Unc. in appearance except for minor problems can be had for about half that. A coin that might otherwise cost $1000 might sell for maybe $100 or so. It's a good way to fill an otherwise stubborn or unfulfillable spot in a collection, and it might be the only way for us plebeians to own gold minted in Charlotte or Dahlonega, or that pesky 1911-D quarter eagle, the $5000 coin in a tiny series of otherwise $300 coins in AU.

leothelyon

I say, bid away! And hopefully you know a little bit more than those you're bidding against. I have a feeling it's an exceptional coin, why else would you mess with it?

Good luck with the bidding.


Leo

291fifth

I generally view coins in "genuine" holders as poison and avoid buying them. If I ever were to buy one it would have to be very significantly discounted even if it were a nice looking coin.

lunytune2

Does anyone have a genuine coin in there PCGS inventory ? Do they put a value on them ? How does it compare to a problem free example of that coin ?

RYK

I currently own two, and they are valuable components of my collection.

TwoSides2aCoin

I sold a $10 Indian in a PCGS genuine holder to a guy for a grand a year ago. He took it to another guy who cracked it out and sent it in to NGC and it came back in a genuine holder.
Recently, he asked if he could return the coin. So, I'm buying it back at 85% of the sale price. Even though he cracked it out, I'll take the coin at $850 and crack it out of the NGC genuine holder for a new type set being put together. I value the coin as worthy of collecting. He valued it at "bullion' prices and will accept the loss for his doings, just to get out from under a coin he "valued" higher. <shrug>
He will lose $180, and I will spend $100 more for the coin than I originally paid. Do the math. How much did I waste sending the coin in to PCGS ? Or better yet, how much "value" was added by the plastic ?

illini420

I own several in my PCGS 1908-S IHC Grading set. I paid around the normal good/VG price for the examples that had major surface problems like scratches, rim damage, or corrosion. For a couple others I paid closer to AU money when it was something like artificial color or altered surfaces on an MS details coin. Like all coins, price is dependent on condition and eye appeal.

PerryHall

I would buy a genuine only slabbed coin only if it were rare, something I really wanted, and it was priced cheap enough that I could get my money out of it if a better specimen came along.

LindeDad

<< <i>25% of it's net grade value >>



That might work if it were net graded. but most of the time the seller is doing the grading not the slabber.

mdwoods

It would depend on the coin and what had been done to it. More than one person has had a coin bodybagged in the past only to have it slabbed with a grade on a resubmission. Other coins are obviously damaged/whizzed/over cleaned, etc. It would also depend on the rarity of the coin and how bad I wanted it.

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>Here's one way to do it. Look at the problem coin and assume you already own it. Now, consider the lowest problem-free grade of the same issue that you would seriously consider taking in trade for your coin, even up. (Forget about the money. Focus on the coins.) It's easy enough to figure the value of the lower-grade problem-free coin. And the higher-grade problem coin should be worth roughly the same amount, at least to you. >>



This is reasonable, sort of along the lines of EAC-type net grading. Since the OP specifically mentioned questionable color, it is worth pointing out possible other problems. Sometimes artificial toning is added to make tooling or harsh cleaning (hairlines) more difficult to discover, so be careful.

BigRick

That's why some cojones are needed to assign a NET GRADE!

Frankcoins

They are worth whatever a willing buyer and seller agree that they are worth. Exactly the same as coins WITHOUT problems.

scottgardener

Problem coins may be a lot harder to resell, and that can hurt overall value. Degree of damage is very individualistic, too. But, 25% to 50% of its appearant grade were it not for the problem would seem a good general rule of thumb. It also depends on the coin. A Genuine Saint Gaudens double eagle, common date and uncirculated but improperly cleaned, would be worth almost as much as an MS63 example simply because both are largely valued for their gold. Also, 1790s coins are so rare that most examples tend to be Genuine or Details graded. Degree of difference would depend in part on how easy it is to find a non-problem example of the coin.

joecopper

In copper you pretty much have to accept a genuine now and then.
I think it depends on the individual coin, your budget, your goals, etc. - there have also been times that I have not agreed with PCGS or NGC.

mozin

I don't even look at "Genuine" labeled coins. I have enough problems, without buying more. The market for problem coins is quite small, when compared with the problem-free market.

Rollerman

I have two Genuine coins. A 1908-D $5 gold (color) that I got at auction for just over Gold price that would grade a high AU and, more importantly - an 1815/2 CBH that would grade XF40 easily, BUT had a small (1/8 inch) lightly buffed area on the reverse. I got this coin for 28% off retail. It is the most expensive one in my year set, but I like it and it matches the rest of the set gradewise. Otherwise I would have had to settle for a lessor grade.
Having said that, I don't intend to make a habit out of buying "genuine" graded coins....but they have their place.
Pete

krueger

Great question.

Mr Eureka's answer is brilliant to get you to an answer of value to you, and probably other knowledgeable collectors.


I've been told a similar method on pricing something you want to sell
but have no clue where to set it, is to look at yourself in a mirror and quote sell prices to yourself and as long as your smiling and feeling good
the price is too high . At the point you grimace thats the the right price to sell.

Krueger