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If you were a coin doctor...

tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭✭
...what would your next move be?

Personally, I'd try to baffle them with bullchit. Point fingers at every dealer that doesn't doctor and accuse them of it. And wail loud and long that dipping is doctoring. Try to get everyone so confused that the fingers are no longer pointed at just me.

Ya think?
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Comments

  • HawgstickHawgstick Posts: 240 ✭✭
    Take all the money you made and go to school to become a real Doctor! Make a difference in the world. Maybe even do some volunteer work......
    BST Transactions;
    Seller- thebigeng; morgansforever; bolivarshagnasty
    Buyer-nibanny; derryb; zubie; smittys; konsole; tootawl; socalbigmark; fullcameo; coinkid855
  • 2manycoins2fewfunds2manycoins2fewfunds Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭
    If I was actually named in suit I'd be preparing for endless legal bills..........
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd probably stop using the Laser on R-7 & R-8 coins trying to make the "Big" score. Maybe turn my attention to the more common coins. Perhaps use my laser skills to "Enhance" Morgan Dollars that increase in price dramatically with a point or two bump.

    That or get a real job..... image
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I was a coin doctor...I'd euthanize Susan B.
  • UtahCoinUtahCoin Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If I was a coin doctor...I'd euthanize Susan B. >>



    Agreed!
    I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector.
    Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Point fingers at every dealer that doesn't doctor and accuse them of it."

    Who would be left in that group once you assert that dipping IS doctoring. LOL

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    what if you were an honest coin dealer wrongly named in a lawsuit for coin doctoring ? ok, the honest coin dealer part is a stretch, now what if a coin doctor refused to admit to doing anything that is not commonly accepted practice, and was to baffle the court with a statement such as: "they are the experts, they should have noticed the doctoring before they slabbed the coin"
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    while ebaybuyer is correct that the grading experts SHOULD HAVE known whats good and whats not, the coin doctors were still tring to fraud the experts which is still a crime.

    I dont believe its over for the doctors yet...
    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>what if you were an honest coin dealer wrongly named in a lawsuit for coin doctoring ? ok, the honest coin dealer part is a stretch, now what if a coin doctor refused to admit to doing anything that is not commonly accepted practice, and was to baffle the court with a statement such as: "they are the experts, they should have noticed the doctoring before they slabbed the coin" >>




    The "they are the experts and should have noticed" argument is old and tired. It's also ridiculous.
    My understanding is PCGS is using the terms of the dealer agreement of submission for the lawsuit. So, the dealers have agreed NOT to do certain things. If they do those things and get them slabbed, they have still broken the agreement.

    Experts are people and things constantly change. They are not infallible. That's why I laugh when people whine about grades and grades changing when resubmitted. No one is perfect and no one is always exactly the same..


    As for TDN's question.....in this day and age? I'd probably create an anonymous account, if I didn't have one already, and be on coin chat boards trying to get people to focus on dipping and the fact that the PCGS folks are supposed to be the experts so it is their fault (the redirection attack). I'd also start things going by stating things like "what will happen when PCGS loses" and "what bad things will happen to the hobby now" etc etc etc.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,880 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Questions are

    What is coin doctor?

    What methods are doctoring
    what methods are not doctoring

    What methods are concidered concerving a coin (Such as shipwrecked recovered coin)

    I am sure there a many more !
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,487 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The first thing I would do is hire a Coin Nurse image
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    bochiman, i dont believe it is an excuse either old tired or otherwise, i believe the question is: if you accuse someone of something, does that mean they definately did it ? how strong is the proof ? "we know you did it" isnt proof.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭
    "And wail loud and long that dipping is doctoring."

    Exactly, but you failed to mention that you need to accuse the accuser as well.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    I'd settle as quickly and quietly as possible.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The next step would be to have a lawyer look for loopholes in the contract - it is breach of contract they are being prosecuted for. Cheers, RickO
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    I would work on my finances to make myself judgement proof. Let them get a big uncollectable judgement and continue on as before. Winning a court case and collecting the prize are 2 different animals. I have a 60k judgement that i will never see a dime on. I doubt that i even spend anymore money on renewing it when the time comes. I quit filing rent judgements years ago. I was just tossing more money away for no return.
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,151 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN, I didn't know you were a politician, also.
    Jim

    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • pakasmompakasmom Posts: 1,920
    "I'd try to baffle them with bullchit." image Sounds like some of the building contractors I've known...
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd turn state's evidence
    LCoopie = Les
  • I send in a bunch of my work through different submitters to see if any of my creations could pass the sniff test image
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I was a hardcore coin doctor, I'd focus on artificially toning coins rather than moving metal. In the original complaint, you'll notice that all coins listed were followed by comments that the metal was repaired, the full head on the SLQ was rebuilt, etc. I didn't see a single coin where questionable toning was mentioned.

    There is nowhere near consensus re what is and what is not AT if the doctor is good at his trade. While I agree that it is harder to get an AT'd coin in a holder today than it was ten years ago, it still happens.

    As a response to my comments, I think what we are seeing now is if toning is evenly remotely questionable, the coin gets bagged. The withdrawal of the guarantee on RD copper is also a response to my comments.

    The above being said, I think coin doctors are a plague on the hobby, and I'd personally like to see all of them be forced to return their ill-gotten gains, and also be incarcerated for an extended period of time.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    i would stop using pcgs and submit to ngc. ;-)
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I were a coin doctor I would have to continue my malpractice just to keep up with the maintenance on the Lamborghini.
    image
  • ...what would your next move be?

    Hopefully realize the gig was up and shut down operations.

    What these dealers are going to find out is the suit is likely only the beginning of their nightmare. . As time goes on, I believe there will be many people coming forward and reporting their transgressions to the authorities and PCGS legal counsel. Current and past customers, other dealers, associate, etc. It will be like the dam has burst and the torrent is coming towards them. I don’t think there is anything they can do to prevent it.

    Taking shots at reputable dealers is an act of desperation, like grabbing at something before drowning in the ocean. Ultimately I don’t think it will save them.

    In response to Jeff’s comments I think PCGS is going to make a case against the AT coin doctors of copper coins next. I think their crime is just as serious and hope they are taken out of the business forever. I also think that there is less likelihood we will see newly doctored coins for a long time. The risks will be too high and the chances for being caught will be too great. This is a big win for the collector...
    Jonathan
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If I was a hardcore coin doctor, I'd focus on artificially toning coins rather than moving metal. In the original complaint, you'll notice that all coins listed were followed by comments that the metal was repaired, the full head on the SLQ was rebuilt, etc. I didn't see a single coin where questionable toning was mentioned. >>



    That's because toning is far too subjective for a legal case.

    Russ, NCNE
  • jhdflajhdfla Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Taking shots at reputable dealers is an act of desperation, like grabbing at something before drowning in the ocean. Ultimately I don’t think it will save them. >>



    First they have to find some to take shots at image




    jk
  • jhdflajhdfla Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭
    All joking aside, Feldini's response is probably the most sensible. Of course, that probably won't be the case because of the huge ego's involved on both sides.

    John
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Hide and restructure assets.

    then either

    2. Find testimonial after testimonial of people who find the doctored coins to be improved and not ruined.

    3. Find a slimeball class action attorney that would go after PCGS on behalf of me and my esteemed colleagues for unfair restraint of trade.

    or

    2. Settle and get out of Dodge.
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Take all the money you made and go to school to become a real Doctor! Make a difference in the world. Maybe even do some volunteer work...... >>



    Bingo.
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    I wonder if they can just pay the 3 x damages fine, say " i am sorry and I will never do it again ", and then continue with business as normal like nothing ever happened and keep sending coins to PCGS?

    Or I could die during the trial and no record would ever be kept. (do a Ken Lay) image
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I send in a bunch of my work through different submitters to see if any of my creations could pass the sniff test image >>



    Isn't this what the suit alleges?
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN:

    Sounds like the defense every child learns very early in life......
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.


  • << <i>

    << <i>I send in a bunch of my work through different submitters to see if any of my creations could pass the sniff test image >>



    Isn't this what the suit alleges? >>



    No I mean the actual PCGS sniffer thingy...clearly a lot of AT coins have passed the site test but with this new process to test the surfaces for chemicals etc.....I am pretty sure that AT coins will still be able to pass the test but hopefully a lot fewer. As a coin doctor I would send in examples of my best work using different techniques to see if they could get by this new screening process. The folks already named in the suit have better things to worry about then continuing their craft in my opinion but there are probably a lot of smaller fish concerned with this new detection process. Hey maybe PCGS will work with Ebay to clean up their coins sales image Nah....there wouldn't be many coins left to buy on there if they did that image
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>...what would your next move be?

    Personally, I'd try to baffle them with bullchit. Point fingers at every dealer that doesn't doctor and accuse them of it. And wail loud and long that dipping is doctoring. Try to get everyone so confused that the fingers are no longer pointed at just me.

    Ya think? >>



    Isn't that being a coin dealer?image
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    Is there an industry-wide definition of "coin doctoring"?

    How has PCGS been harmed by coin doctoring, and is there a finite amount of damages that they would be entitled to?
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • dbcoindbcoin Posts: 2,200 ✭✭
    according to PCGS in the suit:

    coin doctoring “involves the alteration of the appearance of a coin to attempt to increase its value, and may involve: adding substances to coins (such as putty, wax, facial oils, petroleum jelly or varnish); treating coins with chemicals (such as potash, sulfur, cyanide, iodine or bleach); heat treating coins in any way to alter their appearance; re-matting (“skinning”) Proof gold; ‘tapping’ and ’spooning’ (i.e. physically moving surface metal to hide marks); filing rim nicks; or repairing coins (re-tooling metal).
  • COALPORTERCOALPORTER Posts: 2,900 ✭✭
    I would escape to a vila in the South of France - "a sunny spot for shady people" image
  • DAMDAM Posts: 2,410 ✭✭


    << <i>If you were a coin doctor... ...what would your next move be? >>


    I'd shoot myself. image




    Dan
  • What Longacre said...
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there an industry-wide definition of "coin doctoring"?

    How has PCGS been harmed by coin doctoring, and is there a finite amount of damages that they would be entitled to? >>




    Answer to part 1: No.

    Answer to part 2: Yes, coins that have had their appearance enhanced by the use of putty, eventually go bad in the slab, and PCGS has had to buy a bunch of them back (and they should still have the coins if they expect to win this case). As for using a laser, I doubt PCGS can show any damages in that area.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,672 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>...what would your next move be?

    Personally, I'd try to baffle them with bullchit. Point fingers at every dealer that doesn't doctor and accuse them of it. And wail loud and long that dipping is doctoring. Try to get everyone so confused that the fingers are no longer pointed at just me.

    Ya think? >>

    Start this kind of thread image
  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>bochiman, i dont believe it is an excuse either old tired or otherwise, i believe the question is: if you accuse someone of something, does that mean they definately did it ? how strong is the proof ? "we know you did it" isnt proof. >>



    OJ,Sim.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>i would stop using pcgs and submit to ngc. ;-) >>



    It seems likely that this will put a huge crimp in a lot of styles.

    Eventually most of their work will probably end up in third and fouth tier holders
    because they'll be afraid of submitting to any of the more reputable graders.

    We'll all be able to own just about any coin but they'll be rebuilds and even built
    from coins of other dates.

    There just won't be as much money in it any longer.
    Tempus fugit.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd start my own grading company "WYSIWYG".

    The only garauntee is the coin is as is.
    Tempus fugit.
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    In the short-term, I'd obfuscate. Going forward, I'd sell to B&M's raw. Thieves prefer soft targets. When dealers recognize they too must rely on the TPGs, consolidation will be complete.

    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor


  • << <i>Is there an industry-wide definition of "coin doctoring"?

    How has PCGS been harmed by coin doctoring, and is there a finite amount of damages that they would be entitled to? >>

    Oh you're just thinking too much.

    "Ya think too much, ya get all mixed up. 'Know what I mean?"
    -Ed Begley, Sr., 12 Angry Men
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the obstacles to contend with in this lawsuit is that in other collectible fields such as art, antiques, and classic automobiles to name just a few, "doctoring" seems to be almost acceptable if not expected. It's sort of like saying the mileage on your 1964 Ford is really 46,000 original because that's what the odometer says....but few would accept it on face value.

    roadrunner

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • I'd move to a latin american country where there is no extradition policy and keep cranking them out through the graces of eBay.

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