Caught a "supercooler" today at a $200 buy-in tourney.

gecko109

Hey, poker is a sport, right? Its broadcast on ESPN!


Anyway, 4 or 5 hands in to the tourney, I pick up Kc Jh in late position. I limped in as did about half the table. Flop comes Jc 6c 3c. What a spectacular flop for my hand! I have top pair/2nd kicker AND the 2nd nut flush draw. Im in love with my hand. Guy in early position leads out a pot sized bet (around 250 chips or so), and there are 3 callers in front of me! I decide that the 1,000 plus pot is big enough for me to take down right then so I pop it to 1500. All fold except 1 guy, who just smooth calls. Does he have the nut draw? If he had a tiny flush im sure he woulda either raised before me or at the very least reraised me when I popped it! Hard to put him on anything but the nut draw....a bare ace of clubs. Anyway, the turn is a GORGEOUS Js for a board of Jc 6c 3c Js. Now im really in love with my hand! The other guy instantly checks and I press the action with a 2,000 bet. He thinks for a second and says he's all in. Now I have to commit my remaining 3,000 chips to make the call. He turns over my worst nightmare.....66! I have exactly 7 outs and im grabing my coat as the dealer rivers a fourth 6. That was the quickest time I have ever been knocked out of a live tourney. It was such a cooler hand that even 5 hours later I cannot decide how/if I shoulda played it any different than what I did.

jdip9

you played it perfect....until the re-raise all-in...once he raises you all-in on the turn, I think you have to sense that you are beat.

Look at it from his perspective. He's watching you pop it on the flop with 3 clubs on board, and continue to bet when another J hits the board - and he still raises you all-in. You have to think he thinks you have a flush or trip J's. It's too early in the tourney for him to know if you are tight enough to fold trip J's to a bluff after showing that much strength to that point, so his bet is most likely not a bluff (plus do you think he wants to bluff himself out of the tourney 6 hands in?)....

so then it becomes a math problem to determine if you should call....depending on whether he has a boat or nut flush you have either 7 or 10 outs to make your full house, which is about 14% or 20%. You need 4-1 odds to call (if he has a flush, 7-1 if he has a boat). If I'm following correctly there is a little over $10k in the pot, you have to put in $3k to win....not quite 4-1, so the math (and I'm guessing some small part of you) says to fold....

gecko109

If, and thats the key, IF I can put him on a Q or lower flush on that all-in turn bet, then I have 10 outs to a house, and another 5 outs to a higher flush giving me 15 total outs with 45 'unknown" cards left, thus giving me the proper price to make the 3,000 call for all my chips. However, thats just 1 possible hand he coulda been holding. Another VERY possible hand would have been AJ with possibly the Ac, giving me just 3 outs to win and another 6 to tie. But, there are quite alot of players who would have done the EXACT same thing that this guy did while holding Jd10c, in which case I would have been the overwhelming favorite. Its such a funky hand, and situation that I really dont see how I could have gotten away from unless I could have put him on a flopped set (3's or 6's), and to be honest, thats the last scenario that played in my head as I decided to make the call or not.


P.S.- As a quick footnote, alot of tournament players...including myself....are fine with putting their entire stack at risk in lower limit/fast blind structure tournies. I'd rather go broke on hand 5 than go broke 4 hours later on the bubble. Especially when I can get my chips in with the hand I happened to go bust on today!

VitoCo1972

A wise man once told me...don't play gigantic pots without gigantic hands. Yeah, you had a good hand and played it right...but if you had a good read, you can lay that down. He could have had a made flush there - or worse (which is what he did). Tough cooler to run into.

billwaltonsbeard

There's not a lot you can do when someone limps in with low PP and makes a set. One thing I might have done differently if I was holding KJo in late position after most of the table has limped in is raise. You might have gotten a few players to fold, dramatically reducing your chances of someone holding a low PP to stay in.

In Hold'em, trips isn't THAT great of a hand. There were several hands that would have beaten yours.

CrimsonTider

I do not believe in 'limping in' while I am in a late position. I am either raising or folding. Aside for the blinds, I try to always raise or fold pre-flop, very few times will I just call pre-flop.

I do believe in being hyper-aggressive early on. I would rather bust out sooner than later.

gecko109

<< <i>I do not believe in 'limping in' while I am in a late position. I am either raising or folding. Aside for the blinds, I try to always raise or fold pre-flop, very few times will I just call pre-flop.

I do believe in being hyper-aggressive early on. I would rather bust out sooner than later. >>





Raising preflop wouldnt have changed anything. With 25-50 blinds and a 6,000 starting stack, even if I raised 4x the BB preflop, pocket 6's is gonna call the extra 150 to go set mining.

Folding preflop with my hand there woulda let me play a few more hands however!

CrimsonTider

KJ offsuit is not a real good starting hand. I may have pushed with it if I was on the button and had no callers.

My absolute favorite hand is 6, 4 suited. I have inflicted a lot of damage with that hand.

Boopotts

FWIW, that is a total non-cooler. If you think that hand is a terrible beat, you either a) have played fewer than 50K hands of hold 'em, or b) have been running very, very well for a long period of time. Seriously-- a bettor, caller and two overcallers? What did you put the overcallers on?

gecko109

<< <i>FWIW, that is a total non-cooler. If you think that hand is a terrible beat, you either a) have played fewer than 50K hands of hold 'em, or b) have been running very, very well for a long period of time. Seriously-- a bettor, caller and two overcallers? What did you put the overcallers on? >>





Huh? None of your post makes sense. 1st, lets define "cooler" since it seems you dont know the term. Unlike a bad beat, a cooler is when you have a hand so strong there is little chance to get away from it EVEN if you suspect you MAY be beat (such as you have KK and a player goes all-in preflop with AA). In that regard, having Kc Jh with a board of Jc 6c 3c Js is a fantastic hand! Even if im not holding the best hand right now....and in 98% of situations, I AM, then I still have draws up the wazzooo depending on what my opponent holds. Sure, you can play monday morning QB and pick out the 5 or 6 hands he COULD have that beat me, but I can list 25 hands that im absolutely crushing him with.

Secondly, what the hell are you talking about with a "caller and two overcallers"? Please go back and reread. Although the flop was seen by 5 or so LIMPERS, the real chips went into the pot heads up. So if you mean to say you are calling those other 3 players who saw the flop for 50 chips each with stacks of 6,000 chips "dangerous", then you have not played poker for very long. The hand was the DEFINITION of a cooler!!!

grote15

If anyone on this board other than maybe CDsNuts knows cards, it's Boopotts.

gecko109

<< <i>If anyone on this board other than maybe CDsNuts knows cards, it's Boopotts. >>




And im sure you know in great detail the poker skill of every member of a sportscard and coin forum, right?

BigRedMachine

<< <i>

Secondly, what the hell are you talking about with a "caller and two overcallers"? Please go back and reread. Although the flop was seen by 5 or so LIMPERS, the real chips went into the pot heads up. So if you mean to say you are calling those other 3 players who saw the flop for 50 chips each with stacks of 6,000 chips "dangerous", then you have not played poker for very long. The hand was the DEFINITION of a cooler!!! >>




What's to reread?? You're the one who said after the flop there was a pot sized bet of 250 and then three callers. I'm confused.

I think you overplayed a marginal hand. You have three guys in front of you calling a large bet, and you have top pair, second kicker. You have a flush draw, but it's not the nuts. You actually had no nut draws.

It would've been more difficult to get out of that hand after the turn, I'll agree. But you were beat before the flop, after the flop, after the turn, and ultimately after the river, all with a hand you had multiple chances to get away from, including preflop.

JMO. Sucks for you.

shawn

edited for spelling

Boopotts

<< <i>

<< <i>FWIW, that is a total non-cooler. If you think that hand is a terrible beat, you either a) have played fewer than 50K hands of hold 'em, or b) have been running very, very well for a long period of time. Seriously-- a bettor, caller and two overcallers? What did you put the overcallers on? >>





Huh? None of your post makes sense. 1st, lets define "cooler" since it seems you dont know the term. Unlike a bad beat, a cooler is when you have a hand so strong there is little chance to get away from it EVEN if you suspect you MAY be beat (such as you have KK and a player goes all-in preflop with AA). In that regard, having Kc Jh with a board of Jc 6c 3c Js is a fantastic hand! Even if im not holding the best hand right now....and in 98% of situations, I AM, then I still have draws up the wazzooo depending on what my opponent holds. Sure, you can play monday morning QB and pick out the 5 or 6 hands he COULD have that beat me, but I can list 25 hands that im absolutely crushing him with.

Secondly, what the hell are you talking about with a "caller and two overcallers"? Please go back and reread. Although the flop was seen by 5 or so LIMPERS, the real chips went into the pot heads up. So if you mean to say you are calling those other 3 players who saw the flop for 50 chips each with stacks of 6,000 chips "dangerous", then you have not played poker for very long. The hand was the DEFINITION of a cooler!!! >>




If I have this read right, someone in EP fly bet the flop for T250, and the next three players called. Hence, a caller and two overcallers. Then, you make a donkey raise of $1500, which gives the field about 2:1 odds on a call. That basically guarantees that anyone with a hand YOU have nutted (e.g., QJ or worse) will fold, but anyone that has YOU nutted, or has a big draw, will call. In short, the flop raise accomplishes nothing. I don't know what you're doing on the turn, betting T2000 into a T4000 pot when you only have T3000 back, but to each his own.

You played it bad-- or at least I think you did. It's not a crime, and God knows I've butchered my fair share of hands (and in ways far worse than this), but it is what it is. As for the cooler issue, this hand to me would not qualify, but again- to each his own.

Sorry you lost, hopefully next time things will go better.

Boopotts

<< <i>

<< <i>If anyone on this board other than maybe CDsNuts knows cards, it's Boopotts. >>




And im sure you know in great detail the poker skill of every member of a sportscard and coin forum, right? >>



Grote probably doesn't. But I think he does know that I've been a staff writer for Flush magazine, a contributor to Bluff, Bluff Europe and Poker Turn, and have done some paid work for Poker Pages. I'm not a hold 'em guru, but I've played over 1.4 million hands, and I probably know more about the game than the average internet message board warrior.

dirtmonkey

As others elude, I don't see it as a cooler. I find it tough to play K/J usually, especially without raising preflop. Granted, 6's probably calls anyways but you're never sure. Depending on your table image, he may even fold that hand if you haven't raised much and have only been forced to show monster hands. To assume he's going to call is wrong IMO. Depending on his position (not sure where he was sitting in respects to the limpers), he may fold if you raise pre and get two callers before him. It's hard to say without seeing how the other limpers were playing. After the flop, if you thought the pot was right to try to take it down, shove all-in. Don't price guys into a call, which is what you did. Finally, when the board paired on the turn it was time to shut it down. You fell in love with your hand. You admitted it. That is always the problem. You admitted he could have had the nut draw (Ac), but did you ever consider he could have had that and the case J? Then you're drawing to a K on the river, which gives you like 5% outs. Hell, he could have already had the nut flush on the flop. I would have just been calling the entire time until betting out on the river if I was the other player and caught the nut flush on the flop.

It's hard to say exactly how I would have played it without knowing the other's tendencies at the table. We should play hands differently depending on how others are playing at the table. But in the end, you played a marginal hand that never became a monster. It had possibility, but never really a nut opportunity unless the river came a J. Pocket K's would have had you bested on the river if a K came for your full boat (J's over K's) and you never had the nut flush draw. So really, there's was only one nut draw for you after the turn. All that being said, if you felt the need to play K/J, you simply should have raised w/ late position pre. If the player w/ 6's saw the raise with two callers before him and players to act after him, he may have dumped the hand depending on the tourney situation.

stevek

cooler hand from the movie The Sting

This movie scene illustrates the original meaning of the poker term "cooler" whereby a deck of cards has been used throughout the game, but then a cheat hides that deck and sneaks another deck, a "cold deck", into the game with prearranged cards on top, to suck in the mark to bet heavy, as the movie scene shows - of course Paul Newman had other ideas. LOL

grote15

< If anyone on this board other than maybe CDsNuts knows cards, it's Boopotts. >>




And im sure you know in great detail the poker skill of every member of a sportscard and coin forum, right? >>



Grote probably doesn't. But I think he does know that I've been a staff writer for Flush magazine, a contributor to Bluff, Bluff Europe and Poker Turn, and have done some paid work for Poker Pages. I'm not a hold 'em guru, but I've played over 1.4 million hands, and I probably know more about the game than the average internet message board warrior.

That was my point, boo, thanks for elaborating for me, LOL..

WeekendHacker

Is it just me, or has the OP never mentioned the buy-in for this tourney? Multiple things have to come into question........how long are the rounds...............how do the blinds increase..........are there aggressive players @ the table................how deep is the player pool and maybe most importantly, how many chips did you start with and how many will you have if you give this hand up?

All of these questions (among others) have to come into question when dude says 'all-in' on the turn (holding pocket 6's - board J 6 3 J). You mentioned it's the 6th hand of the tournament. You have 3-J's, and don't have the A kicker, taking into consideration everything mentioned above, it's a no brainer to give this had up if you will retain half of you chips.

Most players forget that it takes patience to win.

stown

The title says it was a $200 buy in.

And I agree with 99% of the posters; it wasn't even close to a bad beat, just simply a bad call. I, along with everyone else I know, would have folded the hand, especially that early in the tourney.

dirtmonkey

Again, I don't have a problem w/ him playing the hand, but doing so without raising pre-flop and having position is the issue. I think playing it versus half of the table without raising it is a bad move unless you know to fold after not hitting the nuts or a nut-draw on the flop. I personally wouldn't play it early in a tourney (and rarely late unless playing short-stacked or a short table) because I like to get a gauge of how others play before getting into playing marginal hands. I know plenty of players that like to play those kinds of hands, but they all are typically aggressive raisers or flop-o-holics. The raisers will usually either get knocked out quick or build a monster stack and then change gears (if smart). The flop-o-holics almost always go broke in the first hour. But I can tell you one thing that I have learned from playing tons of hands. If the board pairs, the first thing that ALWAYS pops into my mind are the words "full boat". If I don't have it, who does?