Grade of Straits Settlements & 1870 Spain Coins

charlienorth

Whether a group of coins that I just bought was a good deal or not pretty much hinges on the grade of these two coins:

1870 Spain 5 Centimos






1919 Straits Settlements 10 Cents






What would you say these two coins grade?

Do you think the 10 cents has a corrosion problem?

Thanks

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Whether a group of coins that I just bought was a good deal or not pretty much hinges on the grade of these two coins >>

Must not have been a very large deal, 'cause those 1870-OM Spanish 5- and 10-centimos pieces are common and cheap. I like 'em, though. Have gotten several in bulk lots. I would call the Spanish piece Fine, perhaps. Last I checked, only worth about a dollar in that grade.



<< <i>Do you think the 10 cents has a corrosion problem? >>

Possibly, but it looks more like it might be PVC contamination. It needs some acetone treatment. I have some Straits Settlements coins in my collection, but they are Victoria and not George V, so I am not familiar with the value of that coin without cracking open the book. The type is fairly common, but is 1919 a better date or something? Again, without looking at the book, I don't know. I will say I'd grade that one XF, though. Perhaps as high as a low-end AU (AU50) if there is some luster we aren't seeing in the pictures.

Numerically, my assessment:

Spain 5-centimos: VG10 to F12.
Straits Settlements 10-cents: XF45 to AU50 (possible PVC contamination).

charlienorth

<< <i>

<< <i>Whether a group of coins that I just bought was a good deal or not pretty much hinges on the grade of these two coins >>

Must not have been a very large deal, 'cause those 1870-OM Spanish 5- and 10-centimos pieces are common and cheap. I like 'em, though. Have gotten several in bulk lots. I would call the Spanish piece Fine, perhaps. Last I checked, only worth about a dollar in that grade.



<< <i>Do you think the 10 cents has a corrosion problem? >>

Possibly, but it looks more like it might be PVC contamination. It needs some acetone treatment. I have some Straits Settlements coins in my collection, but they are Victoria and not George V, so I am not familiar with the value of that coin without cracking open the book. The type is fairly common, but is 1919 a better date or something? Again, without looking at the book, I don't know. I will say I'd grade that one XF, though. Perhaps as high as a low-end AU (AU50) if there is some luster we aren't seeing in the pictures.

Numerically, my assessment:

Spain 5-centimos: VG10 to F12.
Straits Settlements 10-cents: XF45 to AU50 (possible PVC contamination). >>




The seller claimed the 10 cents to be BU and the 5 centimos to be XF.

Once I saw the coins, it was clear those grades were off. I was hoping for solid AU & F grades from more experienced folks like you.

Krause puts prices of $130 on a UNC 1919 Straits Settlements 10 Cents and $50 on a 1870 XF Spain 5 Centimos. (I know Krause can be quite high, still...)

Thanks for your assessment.

I dropped the dime in acetone! Thanks for that tip.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>The seller claimed the 10 cents to be BU and the 5 centimos to be XF. >>


That seller needs his eyeglass prescription renewed. And maybe his conscience, while he's at it.

Too bad the Darkside edition of this book doesn't exist.



(Actually, the version you see doesn't exist, either, but I digitally created it as a suggestion for some people.)

Sorry you got burned, but we live and learn. And I've seen other people taken for worse.

You're in good company here, now. Just chalk it up to experience. (Heaven knows, a good many of us got a costlier education than that, especially when playing with US coins.)

lordmarcovan

Actually, without a really close view of that Straits dime, I honestly can't tell how much wear is there. Maybe it IS an UNC. I strongly doubt it, though. I would expect more luster. Look closer at the high points, like the knob on the crown, and the higher points of George's cape or robe. See any rub there? I think I do. But I cannot tell from the picture.

Maybe your seller could be excused for calling that UNC. MAYBE.

But for him to call the Spanish piece XF is patently absurd. It's possible this was an error of inexperience- let's give him the benefit of the doubt on that. It really sounds like flea market grading, though, and one always wonders if the sleazier flea market dealers overgrade from greed or from stupidity. Sometimes it is both. Could just be inexperience, though. We'll assume that so you don't go back and throw the coins in his face.

lordmarcovan

Two more things:

One: I've given away probably ten or twelve 5-centimo pieces like that. I used to get 'em all the time in bulk lots. The bigger 10-centimos, too. They were like $1 coins in Fine the last time I looked in Krause (a year or three ago). I'll tell you what- if I still have any and can find one of the 10-centimo pieces to match your 5-centimos, I'll give it to you. Then you can take it back and sell it to that goober for XF price, haha.

Two: are the horizontal lines in the "10" on the reverse of the Straits dime interrupted or flat anywhere? That would be another sign of rub. Usually I grade those by the obverse because of the simplicity of the reverse, but the lines will tell. Notice how some of the dirt and crud is showing on the high points of the obverse, too: a sure sign of rub. Enough rub (and it doesn't take very much at all), and you no longer have an UNC coin. Like I said, I really can't see that one close enough to tell if it is an ugly UNC or just an AU. I strongly suspect the latter.

charlienorth

<< <i>Actually, without a really close view of that Straits dime, I honestly can't tell how much wear is there.

Maybe your seller could be excused for calling that UNC. MAYBE.

But for him to call the Spanish piece XF is patently absurd. >>



I was upset yesterday and just left it after dropping the 10 cents in acetone.

I agree 5 centimos is way off but I think we have to give him the UNC for the 10 cents.

I think the corrosion/verdigis should have been mentioned though.






<< <i>Two more things:

One: I've given away probably ten or twelve 5-centimo pieces like that. I used to get 'em all the time in bulk lots. The bigger 10-centimos, too. They were like $1 coins in Fine the last time I looked in Krause (a year or three ago). I'll tell you what- if I still have any and can find one of the 10-centimo pieces to match your 5-centimos, I'll give it to you. Then you can take it back and sell it to that goober for XF price, haha.

Two: are the horizontal lines in the "10" on the reverse of the Straits dime interrupted or flat anywhere? That would be another sign of rub. Usually I grade those by the obverse because of the simplicity of the reverse, but the lines will tell. Notice how some of the dirt and crud is showing on the high points of the obverse, too: a sure sign of rub. Enough rub (and it doesn't take very much at all), and you no longer have an UNC coin. Like I said, I really can't see that one close enough to tell if it is an ugly UNC or just an AU. I strongly suspect the latter. >>



One: Thank you for your kind offer but I don't want coins that worn. :-)

I'm selling most of my modest collection and buying pretty much UNC coins. As I grow older a few nice coins has much more appeal than something like the, soon to be gone, 30,000 wheat cents sitting in the corner.

Two: Thank you for the tips on how to grade the coin. (I also looked for wear to the raised exterior of the numbers that surrounds the horizontal lines.) I can see no interruption/wear.

Unfortunately overnight in the acetone showed little change. I'll try a few days more.

I feel much better about my purchase! (These are two of 28 coins in the lot.)

Thank you very much for your help!









better pictures:

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss297/charlienorth/coins/10obv2.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss297/charlienorth/coins/10rev2.jpg
http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss297/charlienorth/coins/10rev3.jpg

Moonwinx

Spain... VG, Cleaned, minor verdigris

Straits Settlements... VF-EF, Corroded and Cleaned, some luster remains.

If you don't care for the term "corroded," use 'environmental damage' instead. Same thing.

I doubt that either has been near PVC, but suspect both have seen acetone in the past.
Acetone has a deleterious effect on luster, no question. : (

In my opinion, though genuine, neither would receive a numerical grade at any major TPG.

You should not expect to get a grade here, only estimates and opinions.

I hope seller has return policy. ; )

I would suggest that if you want UNC examples, you should seek graded, slabbed examples,
until much later in the game.

charlienorth

Thank you

I didn't know that acetone faded luster.

Moonwinx

Glad to try and help. : )

Usually the folks that defend use of acetone, or any cleaning methods including dipping, are folks that do it regularly.
I don't buy coins from such sellers, nor should anybody.
If somebody says straight-away that they dipped a coin, I add them to a special list I have developed and keep in a text document.
But I keep that list private and will not provide it to anybody else.
Someday I may change my mind about that, but I have a few friends on that list, too.
I'd simply not ever buy a coin from them which I suspect of having been cleaned or otherwise altered. ; )
It's a long list and keeps growing, now containing over 600 names or seller id's.
Coin forums are a good place to find names to add.

In hand, a dipped Morgan Dollar, for example, may look okay, until examined under a microscope.
Such coins are worthy of the 'altered surfaces' or 'cleaned' designations.

And if the dipper/cleaner is not an absolute expert, they may end up ruining a coin.

The fact that a dipped coin will sometimes be certified or may sell on ebay is immaterial to me.
It has been altered, violating the 'stewardship' charged to all coin collectors.
To dip or clean a coin and not make it known in an item listing is fraud, imho. : )

ColinCMR

for the straits Settlements coin, look at the band in the crown and between each jewel you should see two dots like colon : if it really is UNC

They look like they are there, but make sure there is no wear on them.