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unusual tooling on '54-S Jeff Updated 9-14 w/photo
gonzer
Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭✭
First time submitting a photo. This Jefferson has had me puzzled for years due to what looks like artistic tooling on the bottom of numbers/letters. Die deterioration? I cannot find any info so I'm asking the pro's. Reverse lettering is normal.
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New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
bob
not the best pic but check the bottom of the letters on this broadstruck IHC:
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New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I do believe this to be post mint tool engraving.
In any case, pretty unique.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
and is a curve on the 9 and 5 clipped off?
gonzer - what makes you say it was minted that way?
i think this thread will have some error guys chime in as i know i have seen Washington Quarters exhibit this when they were either broadstruck, a hammered strike, or struck unevenly (or any combination thereof)
also it would be interesting to bring some of the Hobo Nickel carvers into this discussion to see if they feel this could be done (with this precision) on a coin's lettering.......they would be experts on whether or not the metal would move in this manner
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<< <i>Kranky, it's definitely not post-mint. I'm wondering if the Mint ever experimented with ornate serifs on the motto and date. >>
gonzer, What in particular makes you believe this is not post-mint? The hobo nickel carvers were the first thing I thought of when
I saw your image. Shag
Ed. S.
(EJS)
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Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I think it's a strike issue; not post mint nor a die issue. On early US coinage it was (a long time ago) called bifurcation. Oddly, I forget the exact cause. Pure speculation suggests insufficient die/blank contact coin to strike up the ends of the letters. >>
Right. Bifurcation usually occurs at the base of a line, such as the upright of a B, that runs outwards towards the rim. During the strike the metal in the planchet has to move outwards (towards the rim) and upwards or downwards into the lettering and/or numbers near the rim.
This occurs simultaneously during the first fraction of the actual strike, so that the metal flowing into (for example) the B cascades over the bottom edge of the letter and skips over the base of the letter, leaving a void. Only when the rest of the letter is filled with metal, and the planchet has stopped expanding because it is solidly up against the collar, does the planchet metal "back up" into the base of the letter, filling that void.
If the strike is inadequate you may not get this "backing up" at the end of the strike. It is not unusual on Bust halves and dollars because the coins were struck without collars, making it harder for the metal to back up into the lettering.
TD
TD
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>If it is an issue with metal flow during striking, is it strange that it would only affect the left bottom edge of the "L" and the "E"? >>
As I said: Bifurcation usually occurs at the base of a line, such as the upright of a B, that runs outwards towards the rim.
The uprights of the L and E are the same as the upright of the B. These radial channels carry the metal flow outwards away from the base of the upright.
The thinner horizontal lines coming off of the bases of the uprights fill differently.
TD
<< <i>First time submitting a photo. This Jefferson has had me puzzled for years due to what looks like artistic tooling on the bottom of numbers/letters. Die deterioration? I cannot find any info so I'm asking the pro's. Reverse lettering is normal.
I'm going against the crowd and saying that it is simply artistic tooling at the bottom of numbers/letters.
Why was this done?
Who knows -- probably an engraver or jeweler trying out a new technique or practicing on an object of little value, or one who simply had an idle 15 minutes to kill. Later the coin was just spent, either by accident or on purpose.
Neat discussion item, though.
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>
<< <i>First time submitting a photo. This Jefferson has had me puzzled for years due to what looks like artistic tooling on the bottom of numbers/letters. Die deterioration? I cannot find any info so I'm asking the pro's. Reverse lettering is normal.
I'm going against the crowd and saying that it is simply artistic tooling at the bottom of numbers/letters.
Why was this done?
Who knows -- probably an engraver or jeweler trying out a new technique or practicing on an object of little value, or one who simply had an idle 15 minutes to kill. Later the coin was just spent, either by accident or on purpose.
Neat discussion item, though. >>
I respectfully disagree. Notice how the center corner of the 5 is affected in a different way by the same phenomenon. Somebody cutting notches at the bottoms of the characters would not have cut the 5 like this.
TD
<< <i>I respectfully disagree. Notice how the center corner of the 5 is affected in a different way by the same phenomenon. Somebody cutting notches at the bottoms of the characters would not have cut the 5 like this.
TD >>
Why not?
The 9 is also done similarly to the 5. It's all too perfectly matched. If this was a die problem it wouldn't be this perfect and consistent on every letter and digit. I vote tooled, definitely, and frankly it looks fairly obvious- to me at least. I am surprised so many supposedly knowledgeable people seen to think otherwise.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Each serif on the bottom of those letters and numbers is consistent with the use of just one engraving tool. I'm thinking that an apprentice engraver used this nickel's lettering and numbers to practice their trade.
I do believe this to be post mint tool engraving.
In any case, pretty unique. >>
<< <i>Another possibility is that we're dealing with a minor elliptical clip. How much does the coin weigh? >>
Perhaps a wrong planchet error might explain it as well if the planchet
were a little too small to get upset.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>All are absolutely entitled to their opinions, but I am finding it pretty funny that some persist in the tooling argument even when CapnHenwy has provided such an elegant explanation! >>
Indeed.
OP, please weigh, measure and post.
ed - sp
This was an interesting read.
I called them 'dips and curves'.
Fred Weinberg replied and stated:
"I believe what you're referring to as
"dips and curves" is metal flow, which
pulls the lettering toward the edge of
the coin, because it's not seated fully
in the collar."
Is your coin mistruck at all?
Usually seen on coins struck without a collar. Look at coins struck at the mint before collars were used and you'll see this all the time. Or look at broadstruck coins.
The metal flows towards the edge of the coin when struck. If there is no collar, the metal can not be pushed up enough to fill in the die recesses to fully strike up.
Very normal striking characteristic where there is excessive metal flow.
I would still like to see the whole obverse and reverse, as best gonzer can take them. I think we will see other markers that will confirm this opinion.
Dowgie
<< <i>All are absolutely entitled to their opinions, but I am finding it pretty funny that some persist in the tooling argument even when CapnHenwy has provided such an elegant explanation! >>
You can lead a dog to the toilet, but you cannot make him drink......
<< <i>
<< <i>All are absolutely entitled to their opinions, but I am finding it pretty funny that some persist in the tooling argument even when CapnHenwy has provided such an elegant explanation! >>
You can lead a dog to the toilet, but you cannot make him drink......
Also, for this to be a striking issue, it sure is well defined. The physics involved to create this specific wedge shaped pattern is beyond my comprehension.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>For now I will buy CaptHenway’s explanation of bifurcation, but if this is a common occurrence, how come we don’t see more of this type of error (is it an error?) on more modern coinage.
Also, for this to be a striking issue, it sure is well defined. The physics involved to create this specific wedge shaped pattern is beyond my comprehension. >>
This is quite unusual on modern coinage.
We need to know the weight of the piece, to eliminate the possibility that it was struck on a slightly smaller foreign planchet.
TD
bump
Would you also "bump" the missing photo of the subject coin?
Somehow I missed this thread eleven years ago..... I sure wish those pictures had survived. Cheers, RickO
Would you also "bump" the missing photo of the subject coin?
that image is most likely gone forever, but you can open the IHC a few replies after the OP. right click and "open in another tab" to see what was being discussed, paying attention to the letters F-R-I-T or any letter with a straight leg as TD has mentioned. that is where the metal flow problem is most exaggerated.