“You can’t assemble a good set of $10 Libs with a mediocre dealer and you surely can’t do it on your

Longacre

I was taking a read through the blog of an excessively prominent dealer in which he discussed $10 Liberty coins. Needless to say, I was working myself up into a frothy frenzy as he was describing a collecting strategy, and how truly rare some of these coins are in original conditions. I still weep to this day over the spectacular $10 Lib that I sold back to a dealer on the West Coast after it shot up in price, and I have not been able to find another since.

Do you agree with this quote from the dealer’s blog:

“You can’t assemble a good set of $10 Libs with a mediocre dealer guiding you and you surely can’t do it on your own.”


I agree that the $10 Lib series is long and fairly expensive. Finding good coins is also time-consuming. However, is it not possible to assemble a “good” set of these coins by using a mediocre dealer? Or is this series so specialized that you need to be tied in to the market-makers and the specialty dealers?

GoldenEyeNumismatics

"good set" can be open to interpretation...

I bet I could put together a PCGS/NGC set on my own if given enough money, but a lot of the coins would be fugly.

doh

Probably

PonyExpress8

While a knowledgeable collector can certainly with patience, time and money assemble a "good" collection of any series. Tied a bit to your other thread, a knowledgeable dealer that travels to major shows, has many industry relationships and can view a lot of coins will not only help the process along, but will also help to minimize mistakes.

$10 Lib's, or any other series a serious collector combined with a knowledgeable dealer make "good" sets a higher probablity.

CoinJunkie

Well, by definition it's hard to achieve "good" results when relying on "mediocrity".

As to doing it on one's own, I think it's possible, although likely more time-consuming. Once you learn who's
holding what you want, it's a matter of how fat your bank account is.

BECOKA

It depends on how you look at it. If the mediocre dealer is checking with all the other dealers in the country and looking through all the shows, I don't see why he can't help you assemble it.

If the mediocre dealer rely's on walkins froma B&M shop then sure the quote is dead on.

As far as doin it on your own, I think that is possible as most dealers seem to be online or in the process, just make a few dozen calls a week, check some online inventories, monitor the major auctions etc..

The plus in having a prominent dealer is they may know of some collections that are not officialy on sale but might be able to talk the owners out of select coins for a price. This would be the one step above medocracy I would like.

RYK

The more challenging the set, the more assistance is required, be it expert dealers or specialty collecting friends. As an example, I would have never obtained an 1861-D $5 without my connection to one of the top Dahlonega dealers in the country. Similarly, the collector who purchased it from me benefited from our burgeoning numismatic friendship. Anyone can put together a set of mid-grade merc dimes without assistance, but if you wish to collect coins that are truly scarce and rare, going it at in alone is foolish, inefficient, and/or impossible.

Julian

I disagree with the premise that you NEED someone to help you. I believe that you can assemble any collection of coins by attending different numismatic events and not limiting yourself to one dealer or auction house.

I know, for a fact, that Harry Bass dealt with many dealers and attended lots of events and he built a great collection.

It is all about patience and the amount of time that you can devote to the collection yourself.

291fifth

You mean I can't put together a great set of gold coins by visiting the local flea market?

fc

more self serving blog writing by you know who.

if you have the money to consider collecting the lib eagle series...
you have the money to attend auctions in person and get coins on
approval from any dealer. you can attend shows on a whim by hopping
on a jet.

if you have an ounce of sense of what originality means, how to
research, how to grade like an experienced collector should, there
is not a single reason in the world you need an excessively prominent
dealer who writes blogs.

combine that with the tpgs authenticating the coins for you.. and you
have even less reason to use a dealer.

but perhaps most collectors are not sure of themselves and what they
like and need someone to tell them. or an investor with no interest
in learning about coins beyond the fact they own some "good ones".

longacre.. does not this constant drivel get old after a while?

fc

<< <i>The more challenging the set, the more assistance is required, be it expert dealers or specialty collecting friends. As an example, I would have never obtained an 1861-D $5 without my connection to one of the top Dahlonega dealers in the country. Similarly, the collector who purchased it from me benefited from our burgeoning numismatic friendship. Anyone can put together a set of mid-grade merc dimes without assistance, but if you wish to collect coins that are truly scarce and rare, going it at in alone is foolish, inefficient, and/or impossible. >>



so in one case you needed a dealer to find the coin.. but the second
person who bought the coin did not.

interesting. perhaps this second person has found out the key to
not needing these vaunted excessively prominent dealer(s)???

RYK

longacre.. does not this constant drivel get old after a while?

No, feel free to keep ranting.

so in one case you needed a dealer to find the coin.. but the second
person who bought the coin did not.

The second person learned the same lesson that I learned: you need to be either well-connected to the right dealer or to specialty collectors. In this case, I know for a fact that he is connected to both.

RYK

I know, for a fact, that Harry Bass dealt with many dealers and attended lots of events and he built a great collection.

Not a great example because most people (Longacre not included ) do not have Harry Bass money to throw around. He had a lot of coins, some great, many pedestrian, quite a few that were horrible. If you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>The second person learned the same lesson that I learned: you need to be either well-connected to the right dealer or to specialty collectors. In this case, I know for a fact that he is connected to both. >>


In my experience, purchasing a coin from a dealer is often as "well-connected" as you need to be for them to take you seriously as a
potential buyer on future opportunities. Obviously, maintaining a good personal relationship with them can only stand to benefit further,
of course.

KentuckyJ

Having whale money almost presupposes one has the time to dive in deeply, if one chooses to do so. I think Julian is correct here. I suspect the right amounts of intelligent money and energy can bring spectacular results with numismatic specialty dealers and market makers playing an almost secondary role.

Greeniejr

Sounds pretty self serving like much of what is quoted to this dealer. On the other hand, who doesn't have their own best interest in mind. by saying


<< <i> “You can’t assemble a good set of $10 Libs with a mediocre dealer guiding you and you surely can’t do it on your own.” >>

I think the implication is pretty clear that they mean "Your collection is junk if you don't buy from me"

RYK

<< <i>Sounds pretty self serving like much of what is quoted to this dealer. On the other hand, who doesn't have their own best interest in mind. by saying


<< <i> “You can’t assemble a good set of $10 Libs with a mediocre dealer guiding you and you surely can’t do it on your own.” >>

I think the implication is pretty clear that they mean "Your collection is junk if you don't buy from me" >>


I love it when dealers take public shots at other dealers on the forum.

TwoSides2aCoin

Mediocrity is better than half the dealers and not quite as good as the other half.

Barry

Self serving marketing hype from a dealer for whom I have no respect and falls into the mediocre category himself, based on my very limited dealings with him.

Ronyahski

<< <i>I know, for a fact, that Harry Bass dealt with many dealers and attended lots of events and he built a great collection.

Not a great example because most people (Longacre not included ) do not have Harry Bass money to throw around. He had a lot of coins, some great, many pedestrian, quite a few that were horrible. If you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick. >>




First time I can ever recall someone implying that Bass didn't really know what he was doing.

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>I know, for a fact, that Harry Bass dealt with many dealers and attended lots of events and he built a great collection.

Not a great example because most people (Longacre not included ) do not have Harry Bass money to throw around. He had a lot of coins, some great, many pedestrian, quite a few that were horrible. If you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick. >>




First time I can ever recall someone implying that Bass didn't really know what he was doing. >>



I did not say that, nor was that what I was implying. The sheer size of his collection was such that he had a lot of great coins and very many that were quite ordinary or even low-end, even as examples of common dates. My guess is that he likely had to buy collections or large groups of coins to get the few coins that he really wanted and just never dispersed the mediocre stuff.

Bass was one of the great numismatists of the last century, and his posthumous book (co-authored with Dannreuther) on early gold is the definitive publication on the most interesting and complex era of US gold coins.

dizzyfoxx

More info needed.... Define "good set" and define "mediocre dealer"?

JCMhouston

I also agree it's just self serving fluff, however it never hurts to let a well connected dealer know what you are looking for. As for "needing" a dealer to guide me, I don't think so. If you are spending serious money on a rare series then the dealers will soon know who you are and get their wares in front of you, before it goes on the web site.

Now being connected with other collectors is something else. I had a fellow collector alert me just this week to a couple of very rare coins coming up for auction, I dabble in the area, but he is a real specialist. Yes, I may have found them myself, but maybe not, and it is nice when other collectors make sure you know what is coming available.

roadrunner

By attending the biggest auctions and the larger shows one can certainly get their face out there as a serious buyer in the series. TDN has all but done that in seated or trade dollars. If you have a serious dollar, bring it to TDN. If you have a serious cent, Stewart is your man. Using having one dealer be your only supplier would probably ensure you will overpay in the long run. The word fudgy the whale comes to mind. Saying that someone here couldn't put together a fine set of seated quarters without a specialty dealer to hit you up for another 15-20% markup seems sort of ridiculous. Dealers were much more important before the internet days. It's less so today.

roadrunner

VillaRica

<< <i>The more challenging the set, the more assistance is required, be it expert dealers or specialty collecting friends. As an example, I would have never obtained an 1861-D $5 without my connection to one of the top Dahlonega dealers in the country. Anyone can put together a set of mid-grade merc dimes without assistance, but if you wish to collect coins that are truly scarce and rare, going it at in alone is foolish, inefficient, and/or impossible. >>

messydesk

I'll agree with the mediocre dealer comment, but "on your own" you could dedicate yourself to studying the series, with the initial guidance of an expert perhaps, and then gather the expertise to undertake much of the task yourself.

Besides, if you do assemble a good set of $10 Libs, David Hall will slip you the tongue at a PCGS lunch.

Greeniejr

<< <i>

<< <i>Sounds pretty self serving like much of what is quoted to this dealer. On the other hand, who doesn't have their own best interest in mind. by saying


<< <i> “You can’t assemble a good set of $10 Libs with a mediocre dealer guiding you and you surely can’t do it on your own.” >>

I think the implication is pretty clear that they mean "Your collection is junk if you don't buy from me" >>


I love it when dealers take public shots at other dealers on the forum. >>



Its not a shot at him in any way. He is looking out for himself and that is fine. He is a recognized expert (read as he wrote the book on it) in an area and he provides a value added service to his customers. This could very well be worth it or not, but its not a series I know or particularly care about. Collectors can be just as knowledgeable as dealers and in some cases moreso. That being said, making a blanket statement like that does not get people excited about a series and could scare people away. I think a lot of dealers could learn a thing or too from Tom (Capthenway) in that he knows more about US coins in general than all but a select few yet he will never belittle the numismatic knowledge of anyone. (With the exception of people who come in over the counter who have picked up a coin book in their life and say they know more than him)

adamlaneus

Hm. I've found a few coins 'on my own' whatever the heck that means. Nobody on this planet is alone. You are going to have to buy a coin from another individual.

The key here is 'good'. I think that some of the $10 libs I have found on my own are good. Some are just there to make my set heavier. I'm very satisfied with where I am so far and optimistic about the future.

If, by 'good', you mean the rarer ones that will cost me five digits and upwards? Well, i'm okay with my collection not being 'good' in this sense of 'good'.

Perhaps this dealer is angling for the elite buyers. That is okay and as a businessman, I can understand why.
But as marketing material, it has a problem. The words used sound like a turnoff to the non elite.
There are lots of coin collectors who are non elite by choice. If the blogger was not intending to turn non-elite folks off, then I would say that the words used could be different.

The below statement is chock full of negativity.
"You can’t assemble a good set of $10 Libs with a mediocre dealer and you surely can’t do it on your own."


Here is a positive way to say a very similar thing:

"The most interesting and attractive $10 Lib set can be assembled when you have the guidance of a specialist dealer showing you things about the series you never knew."
"You can do it on your own, but many of your purchases will be innocently ignorant. A collectors money can be spent more intelligently and effectively."

SmallEagle

This is one of the funniest threads about self-serving statements from dealers that I've seen on this fine forum.

But RYK, you equated the Bass collection with crap?



<< <i>Not a great example because most people (Longacre not included ) do not have Harry Bass money to throw around. He had a lot of coins, some great, many pedestrian, quite a few that were horrible. If you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick. >>





Otherwise I agree with FC that i


<< <i>f you have the money to consider collecting the lib eagle series...
you have the money to attend auctions in person and get coins on
approval from any dealer. you can attend shows on a whim by hopping
on a jet. >>

RYK

Why is it so shocking and disturbing that a dealer makes statements that are self-promotional on his very own commercial website? Is there a better or more appropriate venue or mechanism to promote himself that meets the rigorous morals standards of this forum? No doubt those of you who are in business for yourselves do not engage in such tawdry behavior.

I agree with adamlaneus that Doug could have said it better than he did, and he usually does, but for goodness sake, the man just lost his wife about a month ago, and I think he may be a bit off his game.

I disagree with fc, smalleagle, and some of the others that wealth and/or effort necessarily equate with the ability to pick good coins for one's collections. I have seen crummy collections put together by wealthy collectors and crummy collections put together by folks who had an inflated sense of their abilities because they were quick studies in other areas. That said, people are free to pursue their collections by whatever means are most comfortable to them.

Julian

<< <i>I know, for a fact, that Harry Bass dealt with many dealers and attended lots of events and he built a great collection. Not a great example because most people (Longacre not included ) do not have Harry Bass money to throw around. He had a lot of coins, some great, many pedestrian, quite a few that were horrible. If you throw enough crap against the wall, some of it will stick. >>



FYI, Bass was as sophisticated a gold collector as any that have gone before him and probably, most of those who succeed him.

Sometimes horrible coins have their own charms and were probably different die varieties or die states. He definitley had numismatic goals and went after them with gusto. His desire was to do with gold coins, what Reiver did with silver and copper coins. Reiver dealt with many, many dealers over his lifetime, as well.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>I have seen crummy collections put together by wealthy collectors and crummy collections put together by folks who had an inflated sense of their abilities because they were quick studies in other areas. >>


It's all about how you define "crummy" or "good" or "mediocre".

One man's treasure is another man's trash...etc.

CoinJunkie

<< <i>I disagree with fc, smalleagle, and some of the others that wealth and/or effort necessarily equate with the ability to pick good coins for one's collections. I have seen crummy collections put together by wealthy collectors and crummy collections put together by folks who had an inflated sense of their abilities because they were quick studies in other areas. That said, people are free to pursue their collections by whatever means are most comfortable to them. >>


It's one thing to assert what you did above (which I have no problem with) and yet another to claim that a (presumably
savvy) collector "surely" can't assemble a world class set primarily based on their own efforts.

mozeppa

its a good way to make a mediocre dealer rich.