ANA Shows are not what they used to be...
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cwt
Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
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cwt
Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
cwt
Posts: 293 ✭✭✭
Comments
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Who is John Galt?
But it doesn't matter anyway, since I couldn't go to the show...
Perhaps they should rotate the show among easy to reach, comfortable locations like Las Vegas, Dallas or Houston, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, and Orlando (or South Florida), places that already have some coin show momentum or significant coin presence.
Edit: If I never go to LA again, it will be too soon.
<< <i>Perhaps they should rotate the show among easy to reach, comfortable locations like Las Vegas, Dallas or Houston, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, and Orlando (or South Florida), places that already have some coin show momentum or significant coin presence. >>
I had a blast in Baltimore.
<< <i>I really hate it when dealers post show reports before a show is over... I mean, they didn't even see us locals yet who work for a living since we can only come on Saturday and/or Sunday... but I sort of expect this from dealers who don't even stay for the weekend anyways at the Long Beach shows >>
VERY GOOD POINT!
I always wondered how is this hobby/industry supposed to grow if 40-60& of the dealers are gone by sat 2pm???????? & closed on sundays?????
boggles the mind
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
<< <i>I really hate it when dealers post show reports before a show is over... I mean, they didn't even see us locals yet who work for a living since we can only come on Saturday and/or Sunday... but I sort of expect this from dealers who don't even stay for the weekend anyways at the Long Beach shows >>
Hey it's Laura! She's doing what she does best - Complain!
I'm with her on the hotel aspect though as this makes two including SaintGuru. There is absolutely no reason why the hotels promoted by the ANA were not within walking distance of the Convention Center. It presents security problems which most dealers would rather not have. Poor planning IMO and the ANA should take serious note and make some changes!
I'm with her on the coin doctoring rants as well. If anything at all, the ANA should be on the front lines and leading the way with this one!
The name is LEE!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Oh I don't know........but perhaps it might help to not trash the show to potential customers viewing your website?
I am now comfortably sitting in my hotel in Hollywood, a short drive from the convention center. Yes, I went into LA again today to meet up with Rick Snow and Charmy Harker for poker ( we played pool instead in the hotel lounge ). I was shocked at the $45 a night parking.......( do what I did, grease the valet guy 20 bucks and forget that silly fee)
I found Lauras table fascinating today. I saw and droooooled after the 1909-VDB Matte Proof, PCGS PR-68 RB CAC stickered.
I was able to meet Sunnywood in person and discuss toning while taking in the Trade Dollar Nut finest ever set of TD's. I stopped by and discussed some biz with Wayne Herndon, stopped by Julians table and said hi, over all, my wife and I ( her 1st major coin show ) had a blast. Jon at Scarsdale Coins had the neatest sign ..." gone fishing...back in 5 minutes" , I was hoping to meet him as well.
We did comment on our way out, LA SUCKS. I plan on metal detecting the beaches of Santa Monica and Venice tommorow, I recently bought a new Whites MXT.
LA is ok, kinda sucky but ok, I cannot wait for Long Beach in a month, thats the real SoCal coins show in my book.
<< <i>As an example, I have been frustrated the ANA does not take a major stand on protecting its membership from things such as coin doctoring. There certainly were no seminars about the subject here. >>
The 3-day "Coin Conservation, Authentication and Grading Course" taught by Brian Sillman (from ATS) did indeed explore this subject in some depth.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
If the dealers can't compete with that type of pricing, they aren't going to make many sales.
And really, most of what was out there was average to dreck. Sure, there was some nice material, I can't afford it but at least it's there for those who can. But for the average collector, the pickins were slim.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>And face it, I could buy stuff off eBay for at least a third back of what the dealers on the floor were asking.
If the dealers can't compete with that type of pricing, they aren't going to make many sales.
And really, most of what was out there was average to dreck. Sure, there was some nice material, I can't afford it but at least it's there for those who can. But for the average collector, the pickins were slim. >>
And I am sure your collection will reflect that some day when you go and sell it.
<< <i>And I am sure your collection will reflect that some day when you go and sell it.
If businss is bad, maybe you need to change your buainess model.
No one will know 10-20 years down the road when I sell whether I paid $220 for a coin bought at a show or $160 for the exact same quality coin bought from an eBay seller. (A real example from just this week by the way.) So if you can't match the pricing, be prepared to become more irrelevant in the marketplace.
And it's the exact same quality stuff, just significantly more expensive when buying in person rather than via the internet. (I'd say most of what was on the floor was pretty doggy, but then I wasn't looking at any four, five and six figure coins -- just like 97% of the people there.) But I guess I have to subsidize your costs of doing business. Hell, I had 3 dealers today tell me that the exact coins they had on display at ANA would be cheaper on their websites come next week.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
<< <i>And I am sure your collection will reflect that some day when you go and sell it.
If businss is bad, maybe you need to change your buainess model.
No one will know 10-20 years down the road when I sell whether I paid $220 for a coin bought at a show or $160 for the exact same quality coin bought from an eBay seller. (A real example from just this week by the way.) So if you can't match the pricing, be prepared to become more irrelevant in the marketplace.
And it's the exact same quality stuff, just significantly more expensive when buying in person rather than via the internet. (I'd say most of what was on the floor was pretty doggy, but then I wasn't looking at any four, five and six figure coins -- just like 97% of the people there.) But I guess I have to subsidize your costs of doing business. Hell, I had 3 dealers today tell me that the exact coins they had on display at ANA would be cheaper on their websites come next week. >>
Correction, you are not subsidizing US doing business, you are subsidizing a poorly run state. See in California there is this thing called sales tax on coins that most of us don't normally have to deal with. I have had several deals walk because the prices were too high by about 9.25% which just so happens to be the state sales tax rate. How are we supposed to give you a truly good deal on a coin if we have to pay 10% off the top. Magically if you order the coin from the website, there is no tax.
And if you are dealing with a good dealer, price is a signal for quality and eBay is a signal for junk
If the dealers can't compete with that type of pricing, they aren't going to make many sales. >>>
Speaking from many years experience, unless you are purchasing low cost generic widgets or moderns or bullion related issues you cannot build a truly high quality collection buying off Ebay IMO. No dealer I know of puts his top quality stuff on Ebay, and the collectors who infrequently list decent stuff usually have unreasonably high reserves.
This is vintage Legend ... "In my very strong opinion"
Good points. Above average Lengend presentation
As I have said in previous posts, I suspect that the stock market is now draining money out of the numismatic coin market at a fairly rapid pace.
Expensive coins are viewed as investments by many/most who hold them. When better investment opportunities arise the money follows.
One final note: If the coin market had been white hot double nuclear the buyers would have beaten a path to Los Angeles and gladly paid $40 parking charges.
It would seem that the overall show comments derive somewhat from not making table expenses and having a bad show. As 291fifth said, a double nuclear market hides a lot of sins and pays a lot of $40 hotel parking tickets. Just because July was a purported record month for them (while most of the rest of the retailers were struggling for air or declaring bankruptcy) doesn't mean August follows suit. So I gather it's not really July 2008 anymore?
roadrunner
<< <i>And if you are dealing with a good dealer, price is a signal for quality and eBay is a signal for junk >>
The fact that some dealers may use eBay as a dumping ground for their junk does not mean that everything on eBay is junk.
I would much rather buy from eBay than from the average coin show. It is true that eBay prices are better for the exact same material. Plus, I don't have the wasted time and expense of travel to the show.
I have my own thoughts about the market and show and will be posting a show report after I return home on my site. I find I can do a better job of writing down thoughts and sharing a day or two after an event rather then in the middle of it.
I hope to see some of you stop by and say hi.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
Larry
<< <i>Legend deals in the types of coins that have been hammered in this recession, so it doesn't surprise me she's pissed off. To blame the effects of an economic recession and a diversion of capital to the stock market on the ANA is unfair. >>
That's a load. The floor traffic was, by all accounts, anemic, and the venue was awful. Without going to the show, I sold three significant coins this week ("Legend price" coins) for good money. You could not pay me to go to a coin show in downtown LA.
<< <i>
Speaking from many years experience, unless you are purchasing low cost generic widgets or moderns or bullion related issues you cannot build a truly high quality collection buying off Ebay IMO. No dealer I know of puts his top quality stuff on Ebay, and the collectors who infrequently list decent stuff usually have unreasonably high reserves. >>
And you would be wrong. I have built a very high end error collection (not super high end) from ebay. The prices are fantastic, and if the photo is bad you get an even better price. I have never been to a show but I'm sure the prices of errors at a show would be way higher than ebay.
At the present time, there does seem to be less quality stuff on ebay, but that could be because its the middle of summer.
Anyway, I can't see how you can beat ebay pricing if you know what you are buying.
And yes, ebay does have some truly high quality coins, you just have to FIND them.
<< <i>And if you are dealing with a good dealer, price is a signal for quality and eBay is a signal for junk >>
I repeat, since you didn't get it the first couple of times...
For the most part, the coins being offered on the bourse are the EXACT SAME QUALITY as those available from other venues, including eBay. You do not have a monopoly on "good" material.
I can't tell you how many "problem" coins I went through at ANA. A few dealers have them marked at a price that reflects their impaired status.
Many of these dealers, however, seem to think that these problem coins should be priced the same as ones certified by a major TPG and that have a sticker to boot. Even some of the "good " dealers frequently lauded on these boards are guilty of this.
I saw one of the "good" dealers foisting some otherwise unsaleable dreck onto a YN, it was inexpensive but it was cleaned and crappy looking and being offered at full retail.
There are of course some dealers with quality material (I'm talking about stuff in the under $500 range, which is what I and 97% of collectors buy) -- but in almost every instance the prices are too high. I stress again that coins of the EXACT SAME QUALITY, both good and bad, are available elsewhere at lower prices.
And if you'd like to think that because you are selling them this somehow makes them worth more than if some other guy sells them, you can go right on thinking that. Just don't blame "sales tax" for poor sales.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Speaking from many years experience, unless you are purchasing low cost generic widgets or moderns or bullion related issues you cannot build a truly high quality collection buying off Ebay IMO. No dealer I know of puts his top quality stuff on Ebay, and the collectors who infrequently list decent stuff usually have unreasonably high reserves. >>
And these "unreasonably high reserves" are still LESS than what some dealers price their wares at.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
What should they be? What should change?
are not shopping for uber rarities or coins worth more then 2000 each, ebay is a great place to pick a coin up.
but of course you will have to be patient, go through a few thousand
auctions, and pay up when the right one comes along.
the average collector can do well on ebay. tdn? of course not.
<< <i>
<< <i>Legend deals in the types of coins that have been hammered in this recession, so it doesn't surprise me she's pissed off. To blame the effects of an economic recession and a diversion of capital to the stock market on the ANA is unfair. >>
That's a load. The floor traffic was, by all accounts, anemic, and the venue was awful. Without going to the show, I sold three significant coins this week ("Legend price" coins) for good money. You could not pay me to go to a coin show in downtown LA. >>
I agree. Even I, who likes to attend major coin shows within the Los Angeles/Orange County/San Diego area, have passed on this one, even though this is the first major ANA coin show in the Southern California area in quite some time.
To me the ANA is more of a social thing & as far as that went it was great fun. The mile walk betweent the hotel and convention center was a pain, but at least I got some exercise.
Perhaps the most exciting thing about the show was that the plane on the way back had wifi service (from where I am posting this).
An ANA show or any major show needs at least one or two hotels directly connected to the bourse.
Long Beach is a better situation but there already are three shows there.....so a fourth would be pointless.
Didn't go and very rarely venture into that area.
edit: spelling
<< <i>
<< <i>Laura may be a good numismatist. She may be a good business woman. Actually, she's undoubtedly both. However, she REALLY needs to take a class in writing. H*ll, elementary writing. I felt like I was reading a twelve-year-old's rant. >>
I personally go for content over form any day of the week, to me with he spelling and grammatical errors what she says she says intelligently and from her heart as well as from her head. At least she has the guts to tell it like it ease. I don't look at her as a complainer, I look at her as a catalyst for a better future. Things need to be majorly tweaked, and without her voice they most likely won't be. >>
<< <i>I personally go for content >>
I'll bet you'd love content if your son was 30/40 years with a fifth grade vocabulary.
"It's time for the ANA to reinvent itself from a sleepy, back-room, pamper-the-board group, to a real organization that does something for all collectors, dealers, and the shows it promotes."
No kidding! As far as the ANA's shows, by all accounts, other large promotions like FUN and Long Beach are already much better in every way. Promoting a good show is hard work, but it's not rocket science. There's no reason that the ANA's shows should be crappy, especially nowadays, with weak demand for convention space, and with so much information out there to identify good venues, advertising, etc. Why they don't already alternate among a few cities, like Las Vegas, that have great convention infrastructure, is beyond me.
It would be great to see someone like PCGS promote an ANA-alternative show. If the promoter offers dealers, the auctioneer, and collectors some big advantages over the ANA show, it could blow the ANA show out of the water on the first try.
Consider this... according to the latest ANA budget, it appears that the ANA generates at least $1.2 million profit from its shows every year. (I'm looking at show-related income of $800K for the auction rights + $776K from bourse fees = at least $1.57M income; compared with show-related expenses of a mere $48K! total to advertise the shows, $104K for bourse rent, $38K for convention facilities rent, and up to $200K of other expenses that might possibly be attributable to conventions = up to $390K expenses).
Even assuming a competitor couldn't get better deals than the ANA on the venue, a competitor would still have a lot of room to offer more attractive auctioneer terms and lower bourse fees for dealers. It could also offer to spend way more than an astonishingly-low $32K to advertise the summer show. It's scandalous, IMHO, that the ANA milks about $1.2 millon out of these shows, but only budgets $32K to advertise the summer show! Not only that, but a competitor could offer a much better and much less expensive experience for everyone simply by making a wise venue selection (like Las Vegas).
As Laura often writes, opportunity knocks loud!
exempts coin sales from sales taxes would be
advantageous.
Camelot
<< <i>It would be great to see someone like PCGS promote an ANA-alternative show. >>
They certainly have experience doing Long Beach. Not much of a stretch to do one additional mega show a year somewhere else.
And I agree -- Vegas seems to be the place to do it.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Laura wrote:
"It's time for the ANA to reinvent itself from a sleepy, back-room, pamper-the-board group, to a real organization that does something for all collectors, dealers, and the shows it promotes."
No kidding! As far as the ANA's shows, by all accounts, other large promotions like FUN and Long Beach are already much better in every way. Promoting a good show is hard work, but it's not rocket science. There's no reason that the ANA's shows should be crappy, especially nowadays, with weak demand for convention space, and with so much information out there to identify good venues, advertising, etc. Why they don't already alternate among a few cities, like Las Vegas, that have great convention infrastructure, is beyond me.
It would be great to see someone like PCGS promote an ANA-alternative show. If the promoter offers dealers, the auctioneer, and collectors some big advantages over the ANA show, it could blow the ANA show out of the water on the first try.
Consider this... according to the latest ANA budget, it appears that the ANA generates at least $1.2 million profit from its shows every year. (I'm looking at show-related income of $800K for the auction rights + $776K from bourse fees = at least $1.57M income; compared with show-related expenses of a mere $48K! total to advertise the shows, $104K for bourse rent, $38K for convention facilities rent, and up to $200K of other expenses that might possibly be attributable to conventions = up to $390K expenses).
Even assuming a competitor couldn't get better deals than the ANA on the venue, a competitor would still have a lot of room to offer more attractive auctioneer terms and lower bourse fees for dealers. It could also offer to spend way more than an astonishingly-low $32K to advertise the summer show. It's scandalous, IMHO, that the ANA milks about $1.2 millon out of these shows, but only budgets $32K to advertise the summer show! Not only that, but a competitor could offer a much better and much less expensive experience for everyone simply by making a wise venue selection (like Las Vegas).
As Laura often writes, opportunity knocks loud! >>
How do you think the association subsidizes sending out the numismatist to all of the members. It costs more to produce and send out 12 copies of the numismatist per year than the $40 membership fee. Something has to pay for the headquarters to keep its doors open providing their resources. Someone has to pay for all of the giveaways to YNs. The show is a profit center that pays for everything else the ANA does for you.
Exactly my point. The ANA does nothing for me. I don't benefit from 30,000 copies of The Numismatist going unread every month, or from the ANA leadership getting free trips to conventions, or from dozens of disinterested kids getting free trips to Colorado without their parents to hang out with old men coin collectors, or from anything that the ANA does for its members. I decided not to be an ANA member because I don't like the way it's run, and I don't want to indirectly subsidize it by paying more for coins at ANA shows and auctions. This is why there's plenty of room for a competitive promotion.
hold back. Really
tell us what you think.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>It would be great to see someone like PCGS promote an ANA-alternative show. >>
They certainly have experience doing Long Beach. Not much of a stretch to do one additional mega show a year somewhere else.
And I agree -- Vegas seems to be the place to do it. >>
They have Santa Clara twice a year too. Not shure what that says about experience though.
1. First class hotels next to the convention site.With prices
less then normal retail.
2. Moderately priced hotels near the convention site.
3. Restaurants , both expensive and moderate, near by.
4. Location should be in an area of reasonable security.
5. Reasonable cost for dealer tables.
6. Reasonable parking fees.
7. High level of professional security for the show as well as
outside the show and parking area.
8 Easy transportation to the Show. Airlines with frequent schedules.
9.Modestly priced and reasonably good food within the show.
10. Modest weather, free from extremes in temperature.
11. Free jelly donuts!
Camelot
Oregon, I bet only 29,000 copies go unread, sheesh give us NBS'ers a break.