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Very Strange "News" regarding 1914/3 Buffalo Nickel...OR...what does a TPG guarantee actua

Just got off the phone with the folks from "across the street"...spoke with Rick regarding a 1914/3 Buffalo Nickel I have in a image SEGS holder...it is an all there AU Middle Die State...but a few folks at Baltimore felt it had a better shot at a cross with the ATS TPG...rather than our hosts...I'm not sure why but I think it is because PCGS seems to only recognize the Early Die State of this variety, based on what I've seen in their holder...

...anyway...

Apparently, NGC has revamped their variety service and at the time they did this...they eliminated some of the varieties they would no longer recognize...

Along with David Lange, they came to the conclusion that they could not say with 100% certainty that what they were seeing on this "variety" was actually an underdate...

Soooooo...they will no longer attribute this coin...

I asked Rick what they intended to do about the coins they already HAVE attributed in their holder...he said that those coins would be the only ones so designated by them (apparently they will be leaving them in the marketplace) but they have no intention of recognizing this variety again...


I suppose I could try for a cross over with our hosts... or just keep the coin as-is... just another "diploma" representing my ongoing education in Numismatics...image


oy vey...such a wonderous hobby we have... image


(edited to add the second half of the thread title...)
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image

Comments

  • lathmachlathmach Posts: 4,720
    I'll give you $10 for it.
    That way you can take your beating and move on.
    I'm good this way, I don't like to see someone in agony.

    Ray
  • Poof, and numismatic history is vaporized by the indecisive. A very sad choice. Respectfully, John Curlis
  • WOW!!! That is really strange! It's not like the 1914/3 is some weird, off-the-wall, "quirky"(the word quirky officially borrowed from another forum member, all rights reserved! image ) Buffalo Variety! It's one of the biggies! Maybe the 3 Leg will be the next one axed! image
  • CertifiedGoldCoinsCertifiedGoldCoins Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Along with David Lange, they came to the conclusion that they could not say with 100% certainty that what they were seeing on this "variety" was actually an underdate...

    Soooooo...they will no longer attribute this coin...

    I asked Rick what they intended to do about the coins they already HAVE attributed in their holder...he said that those coins would be the only ones so designated by them (apparently they will be leaving them in the marketplace) but they have no intention of recognizing this variety again... >>



    As a long-time Buffalo collector, I always wondered about the 14/13 myself, as "just" possibly a stray mark on the die, but strategically located. As for NGC leaving "certified" coins out there that they no longer will certify, that's just not right. After all, PCGS made good on the "micro" New Orleans Dollars, didn't they? image
    Good deals with: goldman86 mkman123 Wingsrule wondercoin segoja Tccuga OKCC LindeDad and others.

    my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭
    I'm hardly an expert in this series, but I have never been to able to see this overdate.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I, for one, have never been convinced that it was an overdate. Looked more like a figment of an overactive imagination to me.


  • << <i>I, for one, have never been convinced that it was an overdate. Looked more like a figment of an overactive imagination to me. >>




    I've never been totally convinced either... but I have looked at many PCGS & NGC examples...

    1st off --- it is referred to in the Cherrypickers as a Double Die...

    Secondly...there are apparently 3 main die states involved here... as I stated in the OP... it seems that PCGS only holders the Early Die state... examples I have seen DO show obvious doubling of the date and ribbon... and there is enough of "something" to at least be considered as an underdate (although it could just be a die defect or anomally)...

    Now...on MDS and LDS examples...these attributes fade away into obscurity...

    This MDS I have does show the "whatever it is" around/under the 4... and minor doubling in the date and ribbon...

    I once owned an NGC example in XF40...I just could not make out anything unusual in the date...this was apparently a LDS... I did end up selling the coin to a collector who also could not see the "overdate" but bought it based on the label...

    ...this leads to the problem... if NGC no longer will holder/recognize this variety...it seems that their "Guarantee" should lead them to get the coins already designated in their holder off of the marketplace...

    ...after all... based on the auction history of this "variety"... there is a rather large spread between an AU 1914 and an AU 1914/3...

    I do now wonder what the PCGS stance on all this is or will be...
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • i asked pcgs what the graders look for on the 1914/3 ? no reply..... i had a ngc 1914/3 sent it to pcgs for crossover they didnt cross.. good luck trying to cross it... then i tried to sell it at many coins shows none none of the dealers wanted it....
  • A little bump for the afternoon crew...image
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • jfoot13jfoot13 Posts: 2,669 ✭✭✭
    My understanding is there are at least 5 different obverse dies of the 1914/3 that are grouped together with 1 FS# in the CPG of which PCGS recognizes 1. I had quite a go round with them about a year ago.
    I submitted a nice AU piece to PCGS and it was returned as not a FS 014.87, well I looked at the photo in the CPG and it was identical so I sent the coin to SEGS had it holdered and signed by Bill Fivaz as being the FS# listed in the guide and PCGS told me it wasn't... go figure
    If you can't swim you better stay in the boat.......


  • << <i>I'm hardly an expert in this series, but I have never been to able to see this overdate. >>



    image
    --->imageimageimageimage<---
  • I have found three of these and was able to get only one in a PCGS holder. Here's why. PCGS looks for the die variety that includes clear horizontal die polishing marks around the top of the four in the date and the upper point of the three to the right of the top of the four. These were clear only on the PCGS-holdered coin, even though the other two showed the early die state crossbar clearly. The other two were holdered by ANACS. On all three the overdate is CLEAR.

    This variety is an important part of the buffalo varieties set.

    Garrow

    Edit to add information.


  • << <i>I have found three of these and was able to get only one in a PCGS holder. Here's why. PCGS looks for the die variety that includes clear horizontal die polishing marks around the top of the four in the date and the upper point of the three to the left of the top of the four. These were clear only on the PCGS-holdered coin, even though the other two showed the early die state crossbar clearly. The other two were holdered by ANACS. On all three the overdate is CLEAR.

    This variety is an important part of the buffalo varieties set.

    Garrow >>




    What I find very curious is that, according to this gentleman, Rick, who I spoke with on the phone this morning... all the NGC graders along with their research go-to person, David Lange (Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels and many other books)... they concluded that they could not ID this "variety" as an overdate with 100% assurance...and yet they are willing to leave the already atrributed coins in NGC holders while no longer acknowledging this as a legit variety...image
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • tahoe98tahoe98 Posts: 11,388 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll give you $10 for it.
    That way you can take your beating and move on.
    I'm good this way, I don't like to see someone in agony.

    Ray >>





    ..........................image
    "government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
  • 500Bay500Bay Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭
    Interesting... I have a NGC AU55 of this...
    What will this do for the market of the 1914/3?
    Finem Respice
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm hardly an expert in this series, but I have never been to able to see this overdate.

    Whether or not it is truly an overdate, I don't understand the concept of paying a big premium for an overdate that can barely be seen.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • These look like you would be better served to submit them to PCGS rather than NGC
    -Rome is Burning

    image
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So the issue is NGC is not 100% sure, so they will no longer attribute them, but will leave those already holdered in place. I fail to see the problem. They are also not 100% sure they do not exist, so they do not pull those already out there. I guess they could have just kept quiet, and just refused to holder any that came in or put them in 1914 holders.

    This is apples to oranges when compared to the "micro o" issue. I recall they determined it was a "fake" coin. I have not heard any one claim that the 14/3 may be a fake.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ICG will attribute the 1914/3-P only, and only if the 'angle' of the 3 is visible to the right of the 4. I submitted a possible 4/3-S to them and they did not certify it as such, because they aren't convinced it's an overdate.

    I have heard a theory that these really aren't overdates, but are the result of die clashing (the back of the buffalo creating the line above the 4), since many of the known dies show evidence of die clash. I'm not sure I agree with this, though, and still look for the variety on my cherrypicking excursions. I have 'picked 2 that I was able to successfully get into ICG plastic.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you'd ask me, there's quite a bit of the 3 missing.
    image
    image
    image

    Heritage article.


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • There's also quite a bit showing that wasn't efaced by the mint employees. Quite telling is the upper point of the three to the right of the top of the four. Leo's overlays show this clearly. This isn't the only variety that depends heavily on die state, early vs. late, for valuation.

    Early die state 14/13 overdates are so clear a blind man could see them. My last PCGS overdate was snatched up by a very knowledgeable buffalo collector for $2300.

    Just my humble opinion.
    Garrow
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,738 ✭✭✭
    Some of these are easier to see then so called IHC overdates and they sell for silly money. I don't know if its a 3 or not but interesting nonetheless.
    image
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
    I had never thought on the 1914/13 Buffalo that the supposed top bar of the "3" was in the correct position.

    Since the grading services have assets of only a fraction of 1% of the value of the coins that they guarantee, and all
    slabbed (or non-slabbed) coins will eventually "turn", and no insurance, the business model heads toward bankruptcy.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A little history on this variety - in the mid 1990s Bill Fivaz presented a challenge through the CONECA club magazine ErrorScope. He offered $50 to anyone who could find a new overmintmark, and $100 to the person who discovered a new overdate. He also stipulated that it had to be on a new date, i.e. a new 1955-D/S nickel or 1888/7 Indian Cent would not qualify.

    Within a few months, he announced the overdate reward had been claimed, by a newly discovered 1914/3 Buffalo. The discovery coin showed a strong horizontal top bar below the top of the 4, with a defined angled point to the right, plus the loop of the 3 just above the crosslet of the 4. I also believe he used overlay photographs to confirm the placement of the underdate was correct. Almost immediately after the announcement, more specimens were located, and then within a couple of months the 1914/3-S was authenticated. The abundance of examples from multiple mints led some to speculate that a master hub was involved, and this theory gained even more credence when a Denver mint example was discovered.

    I'd compare the 1914/3 nickel varieties today to the 1972 doubled die obverse Lincoln cents, in that several varieties are known but only the strongest is recognized by the major grading services and warrants the premiums associated with the variety.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭

    The prices for this variety are silly and I've never had an interest in owning one (although this series is my primary interest), but I must say I've seen several examples of this variety that showed the overdate very clearly (visible with the naked eye).



    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • Well, I'm very pleased with the example in my collection. I shopped long and hard, settling on an AU53 piece after passing on many.

    Garrow
  • YaHaYaHa Posts: 4,220
    Calling Dr.s Moe, Larry, Curly and Dr. Fred Weinberg, I bet he would shift you in the right direction.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I feel that is a perfectly legitimate overdate-albeit more common than most since there's multiple dies known. Proper attribution not only depends on die state but, more importantly on which die is involved (there are seven known dies-this overdate is the result of a mis-hubbed working HUB, not a mis-hubbed working DIE so there are several dies that were affected.)
    I'm sure PCGS can speak for themselves but I've only seen Die #1, #2, and, rarely, #6 attributed. The other dies aren't as clear as these three dies. As far as the clarity of the underdigit, in my opinion it is every bit as clear (and convincing), especially on Dies # 1 and 2 as other widely accepted overdates that don't show a crystal clear underdigit like the 1942/41 dime. The 1943/42 Jefferson is one that comes to mind.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    Just a quick comment:

    If an overdate is present on coins from multiple mints, then the defect was likely created when the master die was made. (This is made from the master hub for that year. The overdate would result from master hubs of two different years being accidentally used to impress one master die.) Excluding differences in working hub and working die preparation, and damage, all the overdates should be identical.

    Coins without the overdate defect could have come from a new master die (made after the defect was discovered?), or from a corrected working hub. Comparison of high grade overdate and non-overdate specimens should reveal minute differences between working hubs, if that was the case. Otherwise, working hub details would remain the same and the overdate would vanish.
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    whats the latest on this?

    it is in the new Cherrypickers with FS number

    what services are slabbing it?
  • it's still listed in the guidebook so i wouldn't be too worried about it. we'll just see more raw ones out there, perhaps more can be cherrypicked as well....
    For those that don't know, I am starting pharmacy school in the fall. image
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm hardly an expert in this series, but I have never been to able to see this overdate.

    Whether or not it is truly an overdate, I don't understand the concept of paying a big premium for an overdate that can barely be seen. >>

    I can't say it any better.


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's not so much the die state but the die number. PCGS will usually slab Dies #1 and 2 tho I've seen Die #6 slabbed too on a couple of occasions. Since those in charge at NGC don't really care too much for varieties they won't slab a lot of stuff so, to me, they're irrelevant. (They also badly overgrade a lot of things these days-at least in my humble opinion.)

    The 1914/13 variety was created by an overdated working hub so several-at last count seven-different Philadelphia dies exist, along with two "S" Mint dies and a purported "D" Mint die. One point strongly in favor of the variety being a legitimate overdate is the fact that under close examination many strong die polish lines can be seen above and around the top of the "4"-this is an OBVIOUS attempt to efface the underdigit. Overlays have been done that place the underlying "3" in exactly the right place too. The better dies for the 1914/13 are no weaker than the 1943/42 Jefferson 5c, which is universally accepted as an overdate.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I, for one, have never been convinced that it was an overdate. Looked more like a figment of an overactive imagination to me. >>

    My sentiments exactly.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • Hey...this is pretty cool... 1st time one of "my" threads got resurrected... image

    Anyway, the one I had in the SEGS holder got auctioned off on the bay recently... I got out of the coin with my shirt still on... much to the relief of the folks at the coin shows I set up at...image (another bonus is that I am really attached to the mustard stains on my shirt...after all, I'm a sentimental kind of guy...)


    image
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • I have an MS62 of the P mint.
    Take a good macro photo of one like I did and blow it up.
    The top of the 3 is clearly visible.
    I'm not proud of it because it's really difficult to see w/o the magnification.
    However, If they ever try to disenfranchise my 1916/16, I'll scream bloody murder!!
    JT
    It is health that is real wealth, not pieces of gold and silver. Gandhi.

    I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'm hardly an expert in this series, but I have never been to able to see this overdate.

    Whether or not it is truly an overdate, I don't understand the concept of paying a big premium for an overdate that can barely be seen. >>





    image That is my thought too regarding certain so -called overdates. The other problem imho is this and I quote
    "1st off --- it is referred to in the Cherrypickers as a Double Die..." , I have a lot of issues with that being a quoted source of numismatic theories. >>



    It IS a doubled die. All 20th century overdates are Class III doubled dies-known as Design Hub Doubled Dies. Another example of this Class of doubled die would be the 1960 P and D large over small and small over large date Lincoln cent. As far as getting big bucks for a hard to see overdate I believe the 1888/87 was mentioned earlier.

    The CLEAR effacement marks around the "4" in the date would certainly indicate, at least to me, that the Mint personnel were trying to remove SOME unwanted design element. The only thing that could be was an underlying "3".

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