How a rattler makes the rounds, a true story...............................

Realone

The story starts off approx 2 years ago when I bought a 1858 FEC from Wayne Herndon, got an honest deal, he is one of the few good dealers out there, i.e. you can definitiely trust him. I kept it for a year and then decided to send it to Rick Snow to see if he would give it his eagle eye, he said no that the strike was weak and some other reason I can't remember, btw I paid in the low $3k, so when I got what I considered bad news I sold it back to Wayne to obtain another coin that he had that was more expensive and was a bust H10c which would begin a new direction in collecting for me, Wayne was nice enough to make that happen and applied the full purchase price of the FEC to my new purchase. Again Wayne is cool to deal with.
Wayne then listed the FEC (ms65 pcgs old rattler) on his website for $3.5K (about $250 higher than what I paid).

Next month I see it on Mark Feld's website, btw another one of those great honest dealers that you can trust and who I love to deal with. He listed this coin for approx. $3.5K too, so as you can see these dealers don't go crazy with the markups or the fact that the coin is housed in the old rattler pcgs holder, i.e. they are not hyping it or trying to say the coin has a claim to a higher grade.

Today I find out that Coinrarities has the same coin for sale for $4.8K still in the old rattler ms65 pcgs holder.
So this year it has been for sale 3 times by 3 different dealers and the year isn't over yet, how high will it go I don't know but notice it still hasn't been cracked out and upgraded by pcgs and I wonder why.

I am a relative newbe and a coin that I owned is so prevalent in the market place I ask you where are all the great coins these days, there is no great product out there just the churn of resales and the old game with rattlers.

Edited to say: I never said anything positive or negative about Coinrarities because I have never had any dealings with them. It appears that there are a number of parties insinuating that I am stating a negative opinion of Coinrarites so for those parties let me make something perfectly clear I have only stated the facts of the matter, if one choses not to believe me or disagree with my facts then they are free to do so.

fishteeth

I also jsut noticed a coin I used to own on CRO's website.

It is a Roanoke PCGS MS 66 in a rattler. Great coin that I picked up from a dealer this summer for 280, sold at the ANA in Milwaukee for almost 600 to a dealer and today I see it listed on the CRO website. Fun to see how far a coin can travel in a few months. BTW the coin is about the most amazing MS 66 you are ever going to see.

fc

i am seeing a few mid range half eagles go from heritage to
ebay to ???

all the while going up in price and never finding a home.

i would love to own any of them but they are too expensive for me.
seeing them go up in value also makes me wonder about the coin
market for these coins.it appears collectors really do not want some
of them.

Cladiator

<< <i>but notice it still hasn't been cracked out and upgraded by pcgs and I wonder why. >>

Because it probably doesn't deserve an upgrade. Not all rattlers contain coins that are undergraded. In fact if you figure that most of the undergraded rattlers have already been cracked for upgrades that leaves you to conclude that most of the rattlers currently on the market are overgraded or only solid for the grade at best.

RYK

How do you know the CRO coin is the same as yours? Have you seen a photo? Did they give you the cert #?

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>but notice it still hasn't been cracked out and upgraded by pcgs and I wonder why. >>

Because it probably doesn't deserve an upgrade. Not all rattlers contain coins that are undergraded. In fact if you figure that most of the undergraded rattlers have already been cracked for upgrades that leaves you to conclude that most of the rattlers currently on the market are overgraded or only solid for the grade at best. >>



most, maybe, but certainly not all.

LeeG

All three of the Dealers mentioned here are Top Shelf!!!!!!








edited for spelling

guitarwes

Sounds like it's a nice coin that dealer's want to have albeit one said it wasn't anything "special". Sure seems a little special to me.

ColonialCoinUnion

Interesting thread.

For all I know, this is the same coin Flying Eagle Cent that Al (Realone) once owned and maybe it was handled by the other dealers, but we don't have a photo yet and so I'm not sure how he was able to positively ID the item based on the brief description in our Early Bird:

1858 Flying Eagle Cent. MS65 [PCGS Rattler].
A nice, original piece deserving of the 65 grade and looking quite handsome in this 20 year-old PCGS holder. $4,850.

If Al is correct, I'm impressed with his powers (though I would respectfully suggest he may be better off using these skills in Vegas than here in the chatroom).

Lots of good coins (and lots of crappy ones) can be traced through time by anyone with a computer and a library of catalogs. In fact, I've always told customers that most every coin (with the exception of pieces from extremely long term holdings or those which came tumbling out of a wall of someone's old house) has probably been traded by collectors and dealers for years and years and SHOULD be traceable. If it isn't, I'd wonder where it came from (and what it used to look like).

roadrunner

Just because WH or MF did not resubmit that rattler for a regrade doesn't automatically disqualify it from
an upgrade. And CRO's asking price could be coin's real value. There is something to be said for a solidly
graded (or PQ) old rattler. Maybe CRO felt it was PQ+ and the others didnot.

A lot of dealers would just assume take the sure thing and grab a profit. I do that more often
than not with very old holders. In fact just picked up a rattler MS65 $20 gold Lib that came out of the Stack's
October auction. Paid a fairly reasonable $4380 (a bit ahead of market)....less than my max bid!
I would surmise that all the dealers who viewed the coin felt it was not an upgrade candidate or it would have gone for
$5000-$6000+. In any case I have a very clean solid or PQ 65 rattler that does me just fine. A very clean coin
with no real hits on either side. And while it might have a slim shot to upgrade I don't dare risk that. More than
likely it will get sold in the holder for a modest premium to bid.

roadrunner

Bochiman

I think people read to much into almost anything here.
I read the OP and took it at face value.....coin went from Dealer A to Customer 1, then shown to Dealer B, Back to Dealer A then, someway/sometime/somehow/somewho, made it to Dealer C (no real price change), then the mysterious somehow/way/who/time made it to Dealer D with a higher price.

2 years have passed. We have no picture of the the coin to judge if it is PQ. Has the market for 1858 FE gone up that much? I don't know.

But, when all is said and done, nothing bad was said about CRO (as I read it) nor about Wayne or Mark. No blood no foul.

ILikeMercs

a rattler bit my sister in law.

PerryHall

<< <i>Sounds like it's a nice coin that dealer's want to have albeit one said it wasn't anything "special". Sure seems a little special to me. >>



Sounds more like musical chairs to me.

keets

this is just another tale to help the non-believers understand why coins increase in price. on average it probably takes 3-4 sales before a coin ends up with a collector for the long haul and each dealer-dealer sale generally adds something and the market churns on.

AU58WALKERS

<< <i>this is just another tale to help the non-believers understand why coins increase in price. on average it probably takes 3-4 sales before a coin ends up with a collector for the long haul and each dealer-dealer sale generally adds something and the market churns on. >>



coin pricing 101

keets

indeed, but many never took the course.

Arizonadesertrat

Realone, what you have described isn't surprising. Most collectors cannot afford to spend $4K+ (or even $1K) on a coin. You dumped it after Rick Snow wouldn't bless it (and, for him, PhotoSeal is a business philosophy, indicating his willingness to buy (back) PhotoSealed coins--he has to be careful when he PhotoSeals a coin). I can only assume that subsequent owners came to a similar decision and acted likewise, sending it on to another buyer. When quality-conscious collectors find coins in this price range that are nice for their grades, they tend to hold on to them.

elwood

Looks like they trade anywhere from $3,450.00 to $6,350.00 according to prices realized.

Pretty big spread for coins all being the same grade.

Coinosaurus

All of this discussion doesn't mean a whole lot until CRO sells the coin for a profit.

Dealer sometimes pay too much and sell coins at a loss. Oh, the horror But, it does happen.

Disclaimer: I have not seen the coin in person nor am I a specialist in this series.

Shamika

<< <i>For all I know, this is the same coin Flying Eagle Cent that Al (Realone) once owned and maybe it was handled by the other dealers, but we don't have a photo yet and so I'm not sure how he was able to positively ID the item based on the brief description in our Early Bird >>


Realone - How do you know the coin that Coinrarities is offering is indeed the very same coin you once owned or are you just comparing one FEC in a rattler with the same grade to the one you once owned???

roadrunner

I've had NGC and PCGS differ by up to 2 MS grade points a few times. It doesn't mean that one was wrong. And I've also had coins passed by a dozen leading dealers only to have the last one buy it, resubmit it, and get an upgrade the 1st time. Lots of variations.

roadrunner

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>BTW, some here have been pming me and asking me how I was so sure that this was my coin since there were no pics, I thought I covered that simply and directly in my opening thread where I stated that, "Today I find out that Coinrarities has the same coin for sale", the reason that I knew it was my coin is that I inquired about it, I asked the cert.# and they were kind enough to oblige with it, so that took care of that. >>



Who gave you the cert number?

airplanenut

<< <i>Who gave you the cert number? >>




Sir what the he** does the above question have to do about anything? >>

Sometime's John isn't easy to understand, so let me translate. He's asking you who gave you the cert number. Basically, it seems like he is interested in knowing who in the office told you the cert number of the coin. You see, John is an owner of CoinRaritiesOnline, and it would seem as though he is interested in knowing who you spoke with when you were given the cert number.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>all I know is that the coin was mine and has seen a lot of action as of late and I would like to see a greater assortment of pq coins out there in the market place and not the same coins being rehashed and repriced. >>

You bought the coin and then put it back out in the marketplace, but you don't want to see the same coins being "rehashed and repriced"? Now, this isn't intended as a criticism- just an observation- but it almost sounds like you'd prefer that other collectors not do as you did when they realize a coin previously purchased for their collection no longer fits their needs.

ColonialCoinUnion

Guys, I've communicated with Realone by PM and I don't have a need to keep going on and on in this thread.

Lakesammman

Interesting - w/o a picture it's hard to know. There are dealers that dabble outside their area of expertise and aren't real familiar with the FE and IHC series - they can be way off with prices.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the coin looks like.

fc

strange thread.

but alas, coins do go through churn. just like certain customers
at the ISP i work at do :-| they are always sooo picky and leave
us in a huff and puff.. but funnily they are often back in a year :-)

RYK

<< <i>Interesting - w/o a picture it's hard to know. There are dealers that dabble outside their area of expertise and aren't real familiar with the FE and IHC series - they can be way off with prices.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the coin looks like. >>



I am thinking of making a sight-unseen purchase just to make the thread go away.

RedTiger

It may be startling news to new collectors, but coins trade at widely divergent prices. Generic similar quality so-called widgets may be offered at $40 at one dealer, $50 at the next, $60 at a third. The spread in price between low end wholesale and high end retail is often 100%. The term I use is the numismatic food chain.

So even if the coin is the same one owned by the original poster, I don't see a problem. With harder to find, less generic coins the perceived quality of the coin in the holder is a big factor. Look at any auction archive and it is easy to find coins that trade for double what the a second coin in the same company's holder sells for.

The other point is that a dealer (or a collector looking to sell) can ask any price they would like. Until a buyer agrees to the price, the asking price doesn't mean much. The dealer could ask $6000 for all I care, if no one touches it at that price, the asking price alone means nothing.

One popular show dealer I know purposely marks prices a good bit above what their selling price is, and will often move lower than the price in their head, if someone want to play ball, or if they buy several coins. A person that is a good and steady customer will often be quoted a lower price than a new customer.

Barndog

<< <i>Interesting - w/o a picture it's hard to know. There are dealers that dabble outside their area of expertise and aren't real familiar with the FE and IHC series - they can be way off with prices.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the coin looks like. >>



this is an excellent message for collectors to take from this thread, whether or not it applies to the particular coin under discussion. Astute collectors can make rewarding purchases by buying from the right dealers (dealers who may not be expert in your chosen series but nonetheless seek to carry nice coins in inventory). Similarly, when it comes time to sell, it is also very important for collectors to know who the best dealers are (i.e. who pays well) for your coin series.

Bochiman

I agree, I don't think the cert number is important to people who are not part of the thing anyway.
I don't think it is important who GAVE you the cert number either

DUIGUY

My Indian name is, "Walks in darkness, right into things".