Japan gold newp and a question (--->answered)

SYRACUSIAN

Today I received the Meiji41 (1908) gold 10 yen, PCGS MS65, that I first mentioned in this thread.



The coin is not in a PCGS holder, but was left inside its original Japanese one from the Ministry of Finances hoard. It came with a large photo certificate. (NGC does not remove these coins from their original holders either, they stick a label with the grade on the obverse instead). The holder's dimensions are similar to those of the old (small) Anacs slab.

Now, here's my question. It is a 10 yen, but like all other Japanese gold coins issued after 1897 (?), its weight is reduced to half, that is ~1/4 oz, instead of the previous ~1/2 oz. I understand that this was the result of a monetary reform that took place in Japan in the end of the 19th century. However, the silver yens kept their original size ,weight and fineness, similar to those of a US silver dollar. I thought that at the time,the gold/silver ratio was fixed and was the same everywhere in the world. So,were these gold coins intended for circulation only in Japan ? If a citizen went to the bank and wanted to exchange ten silver yens, he would have gotten a quarter of an ounce of gold, instead of a half that he should've been entitled to, and would have normally been able to get in any other country?



edited for grammar

Cladiator

Insert drool icon here

satootoko

At the inception of milled coinage (1870) Japan officially adopted a gold standard, basing the value of all coins and currency on the specifications for a gold ¥1. Silver was originally valued at ¥101 to ¥100 gold. All gold coins were legal tender, but silver was only legal tender to the extent of ¥10 in a single transaction, and copper coins were legal tender for only ¥1. However, over the next several decades Japan moved back and forth between gold and silver standards, completely demonetizing silver at times. The most detailed English language discussion of this course of events known to me is found in Modern Japanese Coinage by Cummings. The better known Japanese Coinage by Jacobs & Vermeule mentions the shifts in standards, with virtually no discussion of the changes or their causes, and since most of the changes post-date Coins of Japan by Munro, the topic is not mentioned.

Regarding the posted picture, all I can do is jealously and then some more.

SYRACUSIAN

Roy, thanks for the reply, I tried my JNDA at first, but as you know, it is entirely written in Japanese.

SYRACUSIAN

shirohniichan

It is a 10 yen, but like all other Japanese gold coins issued after 1897 (?), its weight is reduced to half, that is ~1/4 oz, instead of the previous ~1/2 oz. I understand that this was the result of a monetary reform that took place in Japan in the end of the 19th century. However, the silver yens kept their original size ,weight and fineness, similar to those of a US silver dollar. At the time,I thought that the gold/silver ratio was fixed and was the same everywhere in the world. So,were these gold coins intended for circulation in Japan only? If a citizen went to the bank and wanted to exchange ten silver yens, he would have gotten a quarter of an ounce of gold, instead of a half that he should be entitled to, and would normally be able to get in any other country?

From what I've read, Japan went on the gold standard in 1897. Silver yen coins were no longer legal tender, and those redeemed for gold before the deadline were countermarked with a "gin" stamp. Silver coins became inconvertible and would have only been able to be used to buy gold at market rates (not to be exchanged on par with gold).

According to Wikipedia, "The yen was legally defined as 0.78 troy ounces (24.26 g) of pure silver, or 1.5 grams of pure gold. " Gold was set at $20.67 per ounce (in the US), and the ratio of silver to gold in 1897 was 34.2 to 1. The closing exhange rate on 12/31/1896 was 1.93 yen to the dollar. I guess 10 silver yen would have only gotten you about 1/4 ounce on the international market.

SYRACUSIAN

Thank you shiroh, that makes sense.


The closing exhange rate on 12/31/1896 was 1.93 yen to the dollar.


So, by demonetizing its silver, Japan's yen was worth half a dollar, despite the fact that both coins contained the same amount of silver.

SYRACUSIAN

OK,I edited a few posts, because I think I finally understood how this reform worked. At some point, I might do a bit of further reading from Roy's references.

SYRACUSIAN

I forgot to mention the most important part from a collector's point of view: these 1908 and 1909 gold 10 yens were selling for 50% higher, only 2 months ago. This hoard made them much more affordable, if such a word can be used with Japanese gold.

Stork

That's very cool Dimitri!

I would also recommend the Cummings book. I got mine from ebay of course, from the author so mine is autographed . Unfortunately he has not been active on ebay for a year or so now (mpccoins..now NARU but was inactive for quite some time before that). In fact, as I recall, I bought a coin from him too, that I was able to pick up in person at a coin show in Tokyo. But I digress... you can sometimes find a copy for sale and it would be worth picking up.


Cathy

SYRACUSIAN

He got NARUed? If I recall correctly, I had bought two beautiful coins from him a couple of years ago, a Meiji sen that is now in your posession, and a Taisho one that went to JamminJ. He was coming highly recommended from Roy as well...

Silvereagle82

<< <i>I forgot to mention the most important part from a collector's point of view: these 1908 and 1909 gold 10 yens were selling for 50% higher, only 2 months ago. This hoard made them much more affordable, if such a word can be used with Japanese gold. >>



I wonder what effect the release of this hoard will have on the value of my 1900 10 yen (NGC - MS65). Maybe because it is a "key" to the series, the lower prices for the other years might attract more collectors of the series and therefore value of the "key" year goes up since the number of 1900 10 yens remain constant vs the other years ..... does this make any sense??

Stork

<< <i>He got NARUed? >>


He was inactive for quite some time...I had a bad feeling maybe he had gotten ill or something when I noticed it--I can't remember why, like maybe I'd emailed him or something. His feedback remained pristine until the end. feedback.

satootoko

<< <i>Unfortunately he has not been active on ebay for a year or so now >>

I am saddened to report that Mike has passed on, without completing the third edition of his book that I discussed with him at the Long Beach show a couple of years ago.

Stork

Tsuho

<< <i>

<< <i>Unfortunately he has not been active on ebay for a year or so now >>

I am saddened to report that Mike has passed on, without completing the third edition of his book that I discussed with him at the Long Beach show a couple of years ago. >>



I just got his book and started reading it... its refreshing to not have to try and remember my Japanese and read the J.N.D.A at times.

I wish there were more books in English...

Madame

That’s one beautiful coin.

bidask

Nice coin!

Any idea how many were in the hoard?