My first counterfeit (Intentionally bought)

TwoKopeiki

I believe that knowledge of counterfeits is integral to collectors of Mexican / Spanish Colonial coinage. Sometimes I see more counterfeits on EBay of the coin I want than the original. It's obvious that in order to become an expert in these coins, one must become an expert in distinguishing their counterfeits. Today I took the first step. Riddells' "Monograph of the Silver Dollar" will by my second.

A while back I bought a Mexican Cap and Rays coin. One of my first ones, in fact. This purchase was based only on the way this coin appealed to me visually. I loved the rough look of the planchet. Later I noticed that it had "medal" alignment, which made me think it was a counterfeit. Only recently was I able to find out more about this coin:



It's an 1842, Style 1, Zacatecas 8 Reales. It's a member of the production of this mint in the first couple months of 1842 - before they converted to the Coin Axis orientation. The die style is the one used 1825-1842. It was changed in 1842 to a different design. The second style was produced in very large numbers and is common in all grades. The first style is rare and almost never seen better than VF.

Here's the later design (image courtesy of Novacoins). Notice the head of the snake, head and feathers of the eagle, location of the rays...



Learning about my coin led me to buying this counterfeit today. After studying the originals, picking up on a fake was easy. Although I can't say I wasn't attracted to the hand-cut look of the dies used. Notice the denticles, how some are higher than the others, some with large gaps between them. Denticles can give away a fake easily, since normally the points make an even circle. Also, notice the superscript "s" in "Zs", "Ds" and "Gs" - notice how they are reversed? The eagle side is most obvious with the eagle appearing hand-cut (head, snake, feather pattern).



I think this is my first step into the abyss of a "counterfeit type set".

I hope you learned something

~Roman

coinkat

great pictures and a good explanation of these examples. I am curious what grades you assign the first two? Also, considering the length of time, different mints, dies and varieties that a counterfeit type set may be a larger undertaking than one might think.

I think this is the beginning of a very helpful thread...

lordmarcovan

Cool coins, even the fake.

The eagle's facial features were the tell for me, though I dunno if I would've spotted it right off. He's a bit bugeyed-looking.

The holey Cap & Rays piece on my coin vest is a Zacatecas-mint, as I recall, and from the 1840s. (1844-Zs?)

PS- I like your new avatar coin.

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>I am curious what grades you assign the first two? >>



It's hard to say. Both of them display planchet flaws. I would go with VF 20 for the first, not being 100% sure if the loss of detail on eagles' breast is due to wear or strike, and VF 30 for the second. I'd love to hear other people's opinion on this, though.



<< <i>...considering the length of time, different mints, dies and varieties that a counterfeit type set may be a larger undertaking than one might think. >>



Well, if my health doesn't fail me, I don't see a problem with dedicating the next 40 years to it



<< <i>PS- I like your new avatar coin. >>



Thanks, LordM! It's the one I bought from BS. After seeing some of what he's sold here I can definitely say that he has a great eye for coins.

~Roman

coinkat

okay I will give it a shot... the first is likely an AU50 but may get a BB because it is far from original.

I like the second, but it may not grade because of the rims. I would need to see it in hand. I would grade it in the 45 range, possibly 50, provided that the rims are okay

coinguy89

IMO it is quite wise to acquire the counterfeits in a series that you're specializing in. I'm sure many of the top collectors and researchers have. It's great to compare and have all the knowledge you can. If I recall when I talked with Richard Snow a few years back he did this in the early years of his Indian Cent collecting. I'm sure he's long past that point though. On another note it is actually quite expensive to acquire contemporary counterfeits in the Spanish colonial series.

TwoKopeiki

I agree, Scott. I have been following contemporary counterfeit prices and noticed a rise in the last year. I was contemplating putting together a Sheffield Plate type set, as well, but I need to narrow my focus, not expand it.



<< <i>...but may get a BB because it is far from original. >>



Coincat, just to make sure we're on the same page - the first two are authentic 1842 Zs OM's (type 1 and 2), the third one is the counterfeit. I'm sorry, it's just sometimes it's hard to follow my train of though with English not being my native language.

coinguy89

<< <i>I agree, Scott. I have been following contemporary counterfeit prices and noticed a rise in the last year. I was contemplating putting together a Sheffield Plate type set, as well, but I need to narrow my focus, not expand it.



<< <i>...but may get a BB because it is far from original. >>



Coincat, just to make sure we're on the same page - the first two are authentic 1842 Zs OM's (type 1 and 2), the third one is the counterfeit. I'm sorry, it's just sometimes it's hard to follow my train of though with English not being my native language. >>



Sorry to be off-topic but what is your native language?

TwoKopeiki

Russian.

coinkat

I am aware that the first two are the authentic ones. I did not mean to imply or suggest the first one was not authentic... to me it looks as if it was dipped or may have been lightly cleaned. Because of this, the coin may not be graded by PCGS or NGC. That is what I meant by BB which is "body bag" for a coin that comes back not graded.

The second coin, on the other hand, does look original and I like the look of the coin. It seems to be a decent strike considering how some of these left the mint.

The eagle's breast feathers can be alittle misleading in grading these coins because of the quality of the strike. I tend to look for obvious signs of lustre in the fields in terms of determining a grade.

TwoKopeiki

I see, Cat. You meant to say that surfaces look far from original. I agree - the first coin has been definitely cleaned.

coinkat

Sorry for the confusion... I should have written what I meant

Aethelred

I also have a small collection of counterfeits, I warn you that you'll spend time thinking about how to keep them off the market after you die. I may ask to be buried with mine.

coinkat

Just a friendly suggestion... consider having your estate donate them to the ANA or some worthy organization that is geared towards education, counterfeit detection etc... you can leave real legacy...

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>I also have a small collection of counterfeits, I warn you that you'll spend time thinking about how to keep them off the market after you die. I may ask to be buried with mine. >>



You could have all of them melted down into a magnificent, low-silver-based-white-metal-alloy coffin, Aethelred

Aethelred

<< <i>

<< <i>I also have a small collection of counterfeits, I warn you that you'll spend time thinking about how to keep them off the market after you die. I may ask to be buried with mine. >>



You could have all of them melted down into a magnificent, low-silver-based-white-metal-alloy coffin, Aethelred >>



It would make a very small coffin, mouse sized at best. I also don't think I'd want a counterfeit coffin. I like Coincat's idea.