Home U.S. Coin Forum

Lie, Cheat & Steal 2006: PART 4

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
Some of you probably saw this one coming....



Max Guppo, an old-time collector, submits a long list of mail bids to a well-respected auctioneer. After the auction, he finds that he has spent fifty grand on three dozen rare tokens and medals. Of the lots purchased, all were precisely at his maximum bids. He suspects that the auctioneer treated him unfairly and confronts him. The auctioneer surprises Max by not denying a thing. Instead, he explains that “floor bidding was so strong that opening lots at lower prices would have just been a waste of time.” The auctioneer also reminds Max that the terms of sale make no promises about helping mail bidders save money. Max is livid. He guesses that he could have saved $8000 or more if he had attended the auction and bid for himself. Does he have recourse against the auctioneer?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Yes.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • goose3goose3 Posts: 11,471 ✭✭✭
    yep.

    tell him to shove the bids after he pummels him into the ground.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    What does the auction documentation say about opening bids? Don't they typically start it at the highest bid or am I mistaken?
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    <<The auctioneer also reminds Max that the terms of sale make no promises about helping mail bidders save money>>

    Andy, what, if anything, DO the terms of sale say about how mail bids will be handled/executed (no pun intended)?image
  • MrBreezeMrBreeze Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭
    Yes, don't bid any more of his auctions. Auction companies are businesses. Businesses are for profit.
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    Yes, at least in New York State, which has strict consumer protection laws. The house may bid, but they have to be representing a real buyer, and represent this before the sale (in this case they did say they could bid). The laws, no taxes on fake out- of- state sales/bidders, shill bids, fee fixing etc have all been severly prosecuted in New York State recently. Elsewhere--Mr Guppo should just beat the auctioneer to he#ll.
    morgannut2
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Andy, what, if anything, DO the terms of sale say about how mail bids will be handled/executed (no pun intended)?

    Let's say that the terms of sale are silent on this issue.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Let's say that the terms of sale are silent on this issue. >>

    Then I would think it might default to the particular jurisdiction's consumer protection laws where auctions are concerned.
  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love this "Hobby". Does this/would this ever happen...image

    Ken
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    I just looked at one coin auction company's terms of sale and it reads, in part:

    "Auctioneer reserves the right to refuse any bid, to reduce any mail bid received, to open the bidding of a lot at any level deemed appropriate by the auctioneer.....".

    I would think that unless the laws of the state which the company operates under supersede the terms as stated, a bidder whose bids are automatically taken to their maximums might very well be out of luck.

    Additionally, if there is no language in the terms of sale regarding the above, the bidder might still be out of luck?image
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    I agree with Coinguy - the State laws generally are very weak, and this language would govern unless superceded by these rare laws. The New York laws are pretty fair and above board only because of the concentration of Major Museums and very influential people supporting these institutions, in the same area as several of the biggest auction houses. When only shows-- paying for a dealer rep. is very cheap--if possible.
    morgannut2
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Probably no recourse....

    But the auctioneer is an idiot! Ticking off bidders with $50 grand to throw around isn't a good way to stay in business!
    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • TheRavenTheRaven Posts: 4,143 ✭✭✭✭
    Never having been in an auction before not sure how it works, but I thought they opening bid listed is what they started at period and you as a mail bidder where treated like anybody else....

    Wow after reading this, I guess when/if I get into auction have to read and re-read all the fine print a few times.....

    Good to learn how this is potential applicable before hand
    Collection under construction: VG Barber Quarters & Halves
  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,438 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Never having been in an auction before not sure how it works, but I thought they opening bid listed is what they started at period and you as a mail bidder where treated like anybody else....

    Wow after reading this, I guess when/if I get into auction have to read and re-read all the fine print a few times.....

    Good to learn how this is potential applicable before hand >>



    Those live auctions I have attended since the advent of online pre-bids have usually seemed to open either 1 bid below closing online bid or 1 bid below reserve whichever is higher. If I were the bidder in the original question , I would not be a happy camper, but don't see much recourse given the TOS Mr Eureka has listed.
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    <<Those live auctions I have attended since the advent of online pre-bids have usually seemed to open either 1 bid below closing online bid or 1 bid below reserve whichever is higher.>>

    But maybe some of those closing on line bids were the bidders' maximum bids and there were no under-bidders anywhere close to those levels?

  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,438 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><<Those live auctions I have attended since the advent of online pre-bids have usually seemed to open either 1 bid below closing online bid or 1 bid below reserve whichever is higher.>>

    But maybe some of those closing on line bids were the bidders' maximum bids and there were no under-bidders anywhere close to those levels? >>



    And I can picture that actually happening...luckily (I guess)just never to me.
    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • NicNic Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭
    Maybe the goal should be that eveybody feels comfortable with the process. In the long run. honesty and fair treatment will win out. in the short run , who knows.
    Trime
  • I don't know.

    See ebay is good for something. You can set your max bid and not be around when the auction closes, by using a snipper program. And NOT have it automaticly go to your max bid.

    (Old man) Look I had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, “That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah”.

    (Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
  • Probably not, unless the dealer can be caught in a lie through verification with somebody that was present for the floor bidding.

    David

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file