Something happened to me in the last 72 hours...I no longer desire to send in Mercury Dimes for grad
mercurydimeguy
Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
After giving PCGS thousands of $$ this year on having Mercury Dimes graded, I just ripped up my last order form and have decided to keep them raw and/or sell them raw. I'm done beating my head against the wall 
Initially, believe it or not, this started out as a project to gather some data about how consistently PCGS grades Mercury Dimes. And as usual, things never turn out how you think they will. With each incremental submission I became more and more shocked at just how terribly inconsistent PCGS is. It's as if I began to see for myself, first hand, that the emperor really has no clothes. There is no conspiracy theory here, guys and gals, so don't go there. PCGS just plain stinks at grading these little ladies, that's all.
Anyway, this sentiment has been brewing in me over the last month, or so (but more so in the last few days). I sent in an order of coins, and my setup coins graded higher while the stud coins graded lower...but that's just the tip of it. The setup coin is the very coin I sent in for Presidential review earlier this year and HRH wrote me a note that the coin is properly graded and could never grade higher
I've had one coin go up 3 grades on 2 consecutive submissions, and one coin went up 5 points in 3 submissions 
... so it goes both ways, if you know what I mean.
In the last 6 months most of the Mercury Dimes I've cracked out for submission (PCGS cracked out coins, mostly) have graded 1-2 points lower. Several submissions later I got them back in to their proper holders, and some indeed graded higher like they should've in the first place. The coins are in their proper holders now, but seeing as how much it costs to get some of them there, one might as well had bought them ready made...but that's the caveat...most of the ready made ones that are still on the market are less than desireable (I'm speaking of very high grade or key/semi-key coins mostly).
The straw that broke this camel's back happened when I cracked out a 67FB 44-D that was perhaps one of the nicest high-end dimes I've held. I have a few 68FB's and have seen tons, and this one was a gimmee 68FB (and I couldn't ever rationlize it in anything less than a 67FB holder).
The coin comes back graded 66FB
Along with a 45-S that went from 66FB, to 65FB, to 64FB back to 66FB and most recently to 64FB again (me trying to make a 67FB). IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN' COIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it's nicer than 2 other 45-S 67FB's I now/already own.
I know one can't grade from a picture, but here's picture of the 66FB 44-D. In the last 3 months I've been offered supposed "very nice for the grade 67FB coins" by folks (which I passed on) and if I had the foresight to take pictures of them and post side by sides, you'd think this 44-D is a 69FB in comparison.
I'm done doing Merc submissions...no more $$ to PCGS for Mercury Dime grading from this mercurydimeguy
My lengthy and costly experiment in Mercury Dime grading is over. Perhaps I can recoup some of the grading fees if I publish a report.? 100's of submitted coins so the quality of the data should be good 
I'm moving on to different coins, baby, and will spend all that saved PCGS Mercury Dime grading $$ on buying coins and not donating to CLCT EBITDA as a result of their inability to consistently grade Mercury Dimes.
I've been having a lot of fun building my Type set, and other denominations like IHC's, Buff's, Walkers, Peace $, Gold, etc., with my kids.
I know I sound like a broken record but they need to hire SOMEONE at PCGS that knows how to consistently grade Mercury Dimes. Heck, what I would spend in grading fees on Mercury Dimes alone will pay for a couple weeks worth of someone's salary. Or maybe they should outsource their Mercury Dime grading to me?
I wonder if I can change my mercurydimeguy ID?? Perhaps something like "the collector formerly know as mercurydimeguy", although that's a bit lengthy....
Thanks for letting me vent.... No need to reply as I'm not really soliciting replies. But if you want to beat me up/give me a hard time, or post something insightful, please do post a reply by all means 
PS. DISCLAIMER: The context of my rant is ONLY about Mercury Dimes. I've submitted dozens and dozens of other Type coins and rarely does PCGS grade too high or too low...within the margin of error, anyway. And so I will continue to collect coins and build PCGS Registry Sets and submit lots of other coins to PCGS for grading, just not Mercury Dimes. It's now someone else's turn to bring fresh Mercs in to the market...I'm taking a break.
Initially, believe it or not, this started out as a project to gather some data about how consistently PCGS grades Mercury Dimes. And as usual, things never turn out how you think they will. With each incremental submission I became more and more shocked at just how terribly inconsistent PCGS is. It's as if I began to see for myself, first hand, that the emperor really has no clothes. There is no conspiracy theory here, guys and gals, so don't go there. PCGS just plain stinks at grading these little ladies, that's all.
Anyway, this sentiment has been brewing in me over the last month, or so (but more so in the last few days). I sent in an order of coins, and my setup coins graded higher while the stud coins graded lower...but that's just the tip of it. The setup coin is the very coin I sent in for Presidential review earlier this year and HRH wrote me a note that the coin is properly graded and could never grade higher
I've had one coin go up 3 grades on 2 consecutive submissions, and one coin went up 5 points in 3 submissions ... so it goes both ways, if you know what I mean.In the last 6 months most of the Mercury Dimes I've cracked out for submission (PCGS cracked out coins, mostly) have graded 1-2 points lower. Several submissions later I got them back in to their proper holders, and some indeed graded higher like they should've in the first place. The coins are in their proper holders now, but seeing as how much it costs to get some of them there, one might as well had bought them ready made...but that's the caveat...most of the ready made ones that are still on the market are less than desireable (I'm speaking of very high grade or key/semi-key coins mostly).
The straw that broke this camel's back happened when I cracked out a 67FB 44-D that was perhaps one of the nicest high-end dimes I've held. I have a few 68FB's and have seen tons, and this one was a gimmee 68FB (and I couldn't ever rationlize it in anything less than a 67FB holder).
The coin comes back graded 66FB
Along with a 45-S that went from 66FB, to 65FB, to 64FB back to 66FB and most recently to 64FB again (me trying to make a 67FB). IT'S THE SAME FREAKIN' COIN!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it's nicer than 2 other 45-S 67FB's I now/already own.I know one can't grade from a picture, but here's picture of the 66FB 44-D. In the last 3 months I've been offered supposed "very nice for the grade 67FB coins" by folks (which I passed on) and if I had the foresight to take pictures of them and post side by sides, you'd think this 44-D is a 69FB in comparison.
I'm done doing Merc submissions...no more $$ to PCGS for Mercury Dime grading from this mercurydimeguy
My lengthy and costly experiment in Mercury Dime grading is over. Perhaps I can recoup some of the grading fees if I publish a report.? 100's of submitted coins so the quality of the data should be good I'm moving on to different coins, baby, and will spend all that saved PCGS Mercury Dime grading $$ on buying coins and not donating to CLCT EBITDA as a result of their inability to consistently grade Mercury Dimes.
I've been having a lot of fun building my Type set, and other denominations like IHC's, Buff's, Walkers, Peace $, Gold, etc., with my kids.
I know I sound like a broken record but they need to hire SOMEONE at PCGS that knows how to consistently grade Mercury Dimes. Heck, what I would spend in grading fees on Mercury Dimes alone will pay for a couple weeks worth of someone's salary. Or maybe they should outsource their Mercury Dime grading to me?
I wonder if I can change my mercurydimeguy ID?? Perhaps something like "the collector formerly know as mercurydimeguy", although that's a bit lengthy....
Thanks for letting me vent....
No need to reply as I'm not really soliciting replies. But if you want to beat me up/give me a hard time, or post something insightful, please do post a reply by all means PS. DISCLAIMER: The context of my rant is ONLY about Mercury Dimes. I've submitted dozens and dozens of other Type coins and rarely does PCGS grade too high or too low...within the margin of error, anyway. And so I will continue to collect coins and build PCGS Registry Sets and submit lots of other coins to PCGS for grading, just not Mercury Dimes. It's now someone else's turn to bring fresh Mercs in to the market...I'm taking a break.
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Comments
<< <i>PS. DISCLAIMER: The context of my rant is ONLY about Mercury Dimes. I've submitted dozens and dozens of other Type coins and rarely does PCGS grade too high or too low...within the margin of error, anyway. And so I will continue to collect and submit other PCGS coins.
>>
suckup
sorry to hear of your troubles Michael...
-Hayden
My next submission should be amusing results based on these observations. Send me your mercs and we'll make it really amusing.
Just some Friday nite humor....
Maybe HRH will start a free presidential review thread
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
BTW.....from a merc novice--thats a real nice '44
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
<< <i>hey Mike ... you could save a lot of money by just buying the plastic and not the coin ...
Whaddaya mean? He already has been
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>It is often not wise, to criticize the Emperor, in his own court. >>
Cannot really call it criticism if I have over 20 submissions worth of data to substantiate facts.
I am also not down on PCGS, but specifically down on their grading of Mercury Dimes.
If I was hypothetically ranting/raving without any substantiated data, well that could constitute critisism.
But I'm merely looking at gasoline that's nearly $3.00 per gallon and calling it expensive.
Maybe if only technical merits of the coin was observed the grading would work out a little better. As long as the eye appeal, or Market grade appeal, is still used I think we will continue to see the inconsistent grading of this series because of the varied opinions that different people have.
Again this is just a observation of mine and should not be construed as a attact against PCGS. In my opinion they are still the best going, at this time, when grading Merc Dimes. Their somewhat very strict grading lets some collectors with little money stay in the game and be able to purchase some nice coins for peanuts compared to the next grade up.
Mike when you write the book I want a signed copy. Thank You....
Ken
You remember my telling you that PCGS is indeed quite tough on the mercs and is quite demanding on them. Market grading is the order of the day.
Yet NGC has far fewer of the key dates such as the 1916-D and 1945-P in MS-67FB since they seemed to have held to the technical grading standards of the keys only.
It is enough to make your head spin.
Just to give you an idea of my record on crossing and cracking out, you will be amazed. I have a 100% success record!
3 for 3 in 18 years!!!! You thunk I would want to mess with THAT record????
as in ban the user. silly thought.
what i am taking away from this is, grading is an opinion. do not spend
tons of money chasing grades from TPGs.
<<good luck with ngc and the new and improving anx >>
Not going there either...time to take a break from submitting Mercury Dimes. I've eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and I've come to learn that a fair number of dealers, graders, market data (e.g. pricing venues) providers, etc., really don't like Mercs. Not in a negative way -- they just don't care. And it's the lack of care that's frustrating because they probably grade more accurately (or with greater degree of care) things that they are more enthused about.
Anyway, on a different topic:
I went under my profile and tried to change my "nickname" but I guess I can't. Maybe I can e-mail someone to change it for me?
ObstainFromMercs ... how is that one?
FormerMercuryDimeGuy ... that one maybe better?
How about AbductedMercruryDimeGuy
I don't know why all the "ban" comments. I'm not making anything up. I'm not using profanity. In fact I think PCGS does a pretty good job, overall. They just have a deficiency in grading Mercury Dimes. It's not rhetoric. I have data to support this conclusion.
Sure grading is subjective. But if we begin to say that subjectivity in itself is subjective, well that sounds like a Matrix trilogy. The same graders looking at the same coins over and over again should reach the same conclusion most of the times, right? But I have data to say that they don't. So something must be up. If you look at a color and think it's red, you're not going to say green tomorrow, blue the next day, then purple and then green again. That's not subjectivity -- that's color blindness
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I would like a signed copy, too.
I have a dime in right now for presidential review. It is the nicest 1939-S no band dime I have seen. The coin is totally mark free, strong stike (lacking the bands), great luster, with a crescent rainbow tone from about 9 to 1 o'clock. It is better than any 67 in my set. They gave it a 64. I know what you are saying, and I understand it well. I have set aside a box in my safety deposit box with the best 10 coins in my set. I want to sent them in for regrades, but I never pick them up when I'm at the bank. I have done okay on a few submissions, but I did better on regrades. Anyway, don't abondon the Mercs. You can have a great set without the numbers.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Tough break - I don't blame you for being despondent - however awhile back I kept telling you buy the coin and not the plastic....it seems you felt the need to play the game....in the end of course you lose....PCGS is just doing the best they can overall, it is not just Mercs. You'd have the same results if you seriously took on another series. You've gotten burnt b/c you kept to mercs alone.....overall imho PCGS does grade merc';s best as compared to the rest. That said if you'd resubmit as many times as you did you are bound to get various opnions and different grades each time. I don't think there is a chance unlessa computer takes over or something like that. I feel sorry though for your misery at this point.
Marc
send me a copy of the report too.
I agree for the most part about the grading of early mercs.
Larry
Now you understand!!!
it's a little weird that a company can take thousands of your dollars, do a terrible job (that can be proven empirically), and have no accountability for it.....
But they do, once it is in the plastic. Of course as dorkkarl would have pointed out, the guarantee only goes one way, that your coin should not grade LOWER.
Joe.
Perhaps we should get rid of the 70 point system and go back to Unc, BU, and Gem.
that is funny, a company being responsible?
microsoft would have been out of business years ago.
Sunday mornings on the PCGS Message Boards -- can't you just feel the love?
<< <i>Mike,
Tough break - I don't blame you for being despondent - however awhile back I kept telling you buy the coin and not the plastic....it seems you felt the need to play the game....in the end of course you lose....PCGS is just doing the best they can overall, it is not just Mercs. You'd have the same results if you seriously took on another series. You've gotten burnt b/c you kept to mercs alone.....overall imho PCGS does grade merc';s best as compared to the rest. That said if you'd resubmit as many times as you did you are bound to get various opnions and different grades each time. I don't think there is a chance unless a computer takes over or something like that. I feel sorry though for your misery at this point.
Marc >>
I think you guys are making certain assumptions that aren't accurate, so please let me clear the air.
First of all, I'm about $19k ahead this year in Mercury Dime values (mercs alone...not even speaking about other coins) relative to price points I bought the coins at. Trust me, I have a good eye an do eventually get the coins in the right holders (Mercs or otherwise). Don't mistake my venting as a guy who wants to be the victim -- I'm not and do not wish to be one.
My venting stemmed from the "inconsistency" of PCGS Mercury Dime grading, which makes buying Mercs and sending them in for PCGS grading unenjoyable for reasons I certainly beat to death in my original post
Marc, I think the games of selling PCGS "gift" coins that are 64 no bands in 65 Full Bands holders for significant $$ are asinine. As Merc collectors we've bought them all at one time and learned the hard way, unfortunately. However, IMHO what is more asinine is the pendulum effect backwards. Ladies and Gentlemen 2 wrongs certainly don't right anything.
And I am by no means implying that PCGS has a concerted effort (now) to undergrade Mercs...that's the conspiracy theory folks and NOT me.
So to reiterate, and to be blunt (but polite): I have no problems with PCGS grading other than Mercury Dimes (and some modern proofs, but that's more philosophy than anything else). I am not suggesting that Anacs or NGC does a better job, and don't really care for that matter. I am personally not a fan of either of those services, but I do not want to put them down either. I just choose not to use them -- that's all. My disappointment is in how inconsistently PCGS grades Mercury Dimes. It is because of that reason I will not send them any more Mercury Dimes for grading.
Sorry, but as one fellow board member put it, I should change my Nickname to "obstinatemercurydimeguy"
And as one other board member pointed out to me with regards to criticisim, I guess I am criticizing PCGS Mercury Dime grading, but attempting to do so in a positive/constructive way.
Criticism in the negative sense -- the act of criticizing (usually unfavorably) is not what I really mean.
I really mean criticism in the sense of a critical observation or remark.
Cheers! And thanks for the feedback.
Best, Mike.
Threads like this are interesting. And also confussing. (strictly from a buying viewpoint) I find graded coins to be over-priced, regardless of the grade. Or grading co. for that matter.
It seems to me there should be a computer grading service in the near future. Granted EYE appeal, is not some thing it would be good at. But should be able to give a good technical grade on any coin it's programed for. Measuring wear, counting dings and scratches. Checking for vams. Shouldn't be to hard for a computer.
Luster, toning and eye appeal would be in the eye of the beholder, as allways.
And buying graded coins would be the easyist way to build a collection of high grade coins. As apposed to looking at 1000s of raw dogs to find the gems you want to keep. On the other hand looking for the gems is part of the fun. And helps you to learn to grade your self.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
pcgs graders deal with thousands of coins per day. they are very used to picking up the coin, making an initial call for what the grade will be, rotating it, flipping it, comparing the second and third impressions to the first impression grade, coming to a final grade and moving on to the next coin after entering the coin's grade into the computer. It is generally all done in less than 30 seconds.
many graders admit to not using loupes when grading coins, which is understandable when dealing with anything from nickels or quarters and on up in size. there are top class graders that can probably grade morgans from halfway across a darkened room.
anyway, my guess, and it is just that, is that perhaps when the graders come to a batch of mercs (or worse, just one) after grading larger coins they don't bother picking up the loupe and spending the extra time and effort on grading the little suckers. sure, if a 16-d or other key comes along it will probably inspire taking more than the usual glance, but it is likely that coins as small as these, should the graders not go the extra foot and pick up the loupe and look as carefully as i'm sure you do at the coins, would be far, far more susceptible to miss-grading than morgans or other big stinking coins.
i'm not saying that it's a valid excuse, that small coins don't deserve to be as accurately graded, on the whole, as other coins which happen to be easier to see with the naked eye; just that it's a reasonable explanation for why it could happen.
<< <i>Sure grading is subjective. But if we begin to say that subjectivity in itself is subjective, well that sounds like a Matrix trilogy. The same graders looking at the same coins over and over again should reach the same conclusion most of the times, right? But I have data to say that they don't. So something must be up. If you look at a color and think it's red, you're not going to say green tomorrow, blue the next day, then purple and then green again. That's not subjectivity -- that's color blindness
You just had to take the red pill, didn't you.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Sorry, but as one fellow board member put it, I should change my Nickname to "obstinatemercurydimeguy" >>
<< <i>And as one other board member pointed out to me with regards to criticisim, I guess I am criticizing PCGS Mercury Dime grading, but attempting to do so in a positive/constructive way >>
I think the SAME forum member told you both of those things.
<< <i>I think the SAME forum member told you both of those things.
Mark...me
Mark is a great guy and a good sounding board, even if he hits me over the head every once in a while
That is probably an unconscionable error for a top notch organization, and should warrant a review by that organization. Fortunately, the market does often recognize the faults of the TPG's and there are many examples of equally graded coins selling for widely disparate prices at auction.
While we should all "buy the coin not the plastic", there MUST be a more reasonable expectation of consistency in a plastic encased coin graded at a specific level than what Mike has experienced. Without that consistency, there is NO justification for ANY TPG, as coins can be safely protected otherwise. It is for this very reason that the vast majority of my collection remains 'unbound'. Although, quite frankly, I would like to have much of my collection graded, I cannot see taking the risk of removing it from the bank vault and sending it through the mail (two ways), only to risk experiencing the frustration and potential economic detriment of improperly and inconsistently graded coins.
If PCGS really wants to see its volume of submissions increase it should strive to rectify such extremes of grading inconsistency........
P.S. Mike, I also want an autographed copy of your book!!! Seriously, if you have photos of the individual coins in question, in various graded holders, I think it would be a TREMENDOUS addition to the coin collecting library, and might actually help fix the problem!!!!
Try "RawMercuryDimeGuy".
Seriously, Mike, if I were in your shoes I'd put my slabbed Mercs away and start a raw set. Doesn't mean you can't buy a slab and crack the coin for your album.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
He is obviously addicted and in denial!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
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I love my mercury dime set still needing 14 dimes.
I have some mercury dimes that I just can't fully understand the grade.
I saw a very nice mercury dime set raw and was thinking that's the way to go!
<< <i>Seriously, Mike, if I were in your shoes I'd put my slabbed Mercs away and start a raw set. Doesn't mean you can't buy a slab and crack the coin for your album. >>
A sensible idea.
But you can do better than that!
Put together a ROLL set of truly uncirculated mercury dimes. It is enjoyable to look at 50 of these little ladies (same date/mm) all at one time and feel them in the raw. Some will be fully struck, others no band or weakly struck, etc. It can start out as a date roll set then slowly fill the mm in if still raring to go.
As one collects rolls sets of these mercuries, you definitely learn to appreciate how important fully lustrous mercs are. More important than full strike in my opinion.
This is what I do to keep my enjoyment level up in coins. By the way, this does not intrude on the slabbing part of my collection as roll sets don't lend themselves to the slabbing game anyway. For a REAL CHALLENGE try to pick up a roll or two of obw mercuries!
(apparently Barry and Michael missed this thread)
I did the same thing with 1909 VDB Lincoln cents. Its really cool to look at them in the binder side by side. I kept the notes on where I bought them, when and how much I paid. It's like a trip down memory lane.