Would the NGC pop reports be such a mess if NGC paid for (or otherwise incentivized) returned tags?

RYK

The NGC pop reports are a bigger problem (IMO) than the PCGS pop reports, to the point that they are misleading (too many coins reported in the "undergrade") and virtually useless. The PCGS reports seem a little better. Would the NGC reports be better if NGC had a policy of compensating for returned slab tags (like PCGS does)? Is it too late to do anything about it?

Coinhusker1

It would help "clean up" some of the mess.

PerryHall

Its too late to clean up the pop reports.

Pistareen

I'd love to see them do away with separate lines for every variety attribution -- having 39 (!) different lines for 1795 half dollars is insane!

The 39 different lines represent different Overton varieties, and even subvarieties (which are called die states in EVERY other collecting field). The problem is, NGC doesn't consistently apply varieties. A piece sent in at a show could come back as a 1795 half. Send it in next and it's 1795 O-110, and the next time it could be 1795 O-110a if they notice one more die crack. So now 1 coin is on 3 different lines.

And to think -- there are no DCAM, CAM, FBL, or other alphabet soup designations on 1795 halves. If there were, there could be 50 lines for one single issue!

Nocerino18

What is PCGS's incentive? What do they give you?

robertpr

<< <i>I'd love to see them do away with separate lines for every variety attribution -- having 39 (!) different lines for 1795 half dollars is insane!

The 39 different lines represent different Overton varieties, and even subvarieties (which are called die states in EVERY other collecting field). The problem is, NGC doesn't consistently apply varieties. A piece sent in at a show could come back as a 1795 half. Send it in next and it's 1795 O-110, and the next time it could be 1795 O-110a if they notice one more die crack. So now 1 coin is on 3 different lines.

And to think -- there are no DCAM, CAM, FBL, or other alphabet soup designations on 1795 halves. If there were, there could be 50 lines for one single issue! >>





I absolutely agree with this. The problem goes beyond the Overton varieties, it extends to just about any coin. They have a seperate line for star coins, non star coins, etc. etc....their pop reports are a mess!

RYK

What is PCGS's incentive?

50 cents per tag

Nocerino18

I would assume on the really rare coins that dealers submit, they would want to give back the tags to keep an accurate report.

RYK

Since they have added pricing information, unless you are using a 25 inch computer monitor, it's hard to get the coin date, grade, and population information on one screen.

ROBERTB

I'm curious as how you came to believe that in general NGC's census is worse than PCGS's census? I'd imagine it's the other way around as:

1. PCGS slabs MORE coins than NGC
2. PCGS coins fetch more in the marketplace, which means more crack-out artists would be REPEATINGLY submitting to PCGS to squeeze that last point. I've never heard of someone cracking a coin 20 times to slide it thru at NGC. I'd be rich if I got a buck for everytime I heard of it with PCGS.

RYK

I'm curious as how you came to believe that in general NGC's census is worse than PCGS's census? I'd imagine it's the other way around as:

1. PCGS slabs MORE coins than NGC
2. PCGS coins fetch more in the marketplace, which means more crack-out artists would be REPEATINGLY submitting to PCGS to squeeze that last point. I've never heard of someone cracking a coin 20 times to slide it thru at NGC. I'd be rich if I got a buck for everytime I heard of it with PCGS.

RobertB:

You made about 5 assumptions in your post above that I could legitimately disagree with. Right now, I do not have the time, but perhaps someone else will.

FatMan

<< <i>I'm curious as how you came to believe that in general NGC's census is worse than PCGS's census? I'd imagine it's the other way around as:

1. PCGS slabs MORE coins than NGC
2. PCGS coins fetch more in the marketplace, which means more crack-out artists would be REPEATINGLY submitting to PCGS to squeeze that last point. I've never heard of someone cracking a coin 20 times to slide it thru at NGC. I'd be rich if I got a buck for everytime I heard of it with PCGS. >>

Lets start with number 1. Current available information suggests just the opposite. NGC just annouced they are the largest with an average of 160,000 coins graded per month.

Now lets look at number two. Don't you think that based upon the fact that PCGS coins fetch more money there would be a greater incentive to crack out NGC coins and submit to PCGS? I believe that there are more NGC crackouts than PCGS crackouts being submitted to PCGS. Most PCGS crackouts submitted to PCGS that don't make the bump, are usually cracked out again and sent to NGC for the bump. The perception of slighter looser grading at NGC ensures a continuous crack out round robin game between the two companies.

As for the population reports, neither are anywhere near accurate. So the incentives are worthless.

ROBERTB

1. Regardless of what NGC says about grading more coins I still ASSUME, that's right, ASSUME, PCGS slabs more. However, I believe that's due to slabbing more BS slabs. Meaning bulk crap and promos. I'm curious as to how many coins are "flying" thru PCGS at this point in time.

As a simple experiment I searched ebay for NGC and PCGS. There are about 20% more PCGS coins listed. Granted there is keyword spamming and other variables and market factors at play, but I'd reasonably, once again, assume it would go both ways (PCGS and NGC).

Also, I've been to hundreds of shows and read listings from even more dealers. I feel VERY safe in saying the stock count leans to PCGS.

So, what's going on here. Are collectors holding NGC slabbed coins by the tens of thousands over PCGS graded coins? I think NOT. Perhaps there is a chance NGC currently grades more coins, but if so, I think it's a NEW trend.

2. I would agree that INITIAL crack outs are from NGC but I firmly believe that more PCGS slabs are repeatedly cracked. I don't think it's an overwhelming majority, but I do believe it's more.


Lastly, as many have said, it doesn't make a rat's behind difference anyways as many of the series are shot out now beyond the point of no return.

Since we're on the general subject................
What I wonder is what everyone thinks are the inaccurately reported series? I'd wager that they comprise the series with the coins holding the greatest values.

Hobbyist

With more than one major grading service in existence, fluctuations of tightening and loosening standards, the crackout games, and no real incentive to send in tags, I think it is silly to argue who's population reports are more screwed up. They both are invalid and will only get worse as time goes by.