Another Example of CGA's Grossly Erroneous Grading

For all you naysayers out there who seem to think that CGA is on the up and up and their grading is accurate [or know that it isn't and protest to the contrary anyway] .....

I present Exhibit "X" for you viewing pleasure:

David Lawrence eBay


This CGA CU62 is in fact a real nice XF/AU (used to be original). How do I know, well consider this:

It was most recently sold at auction by Lyn Knight in November of 2004 as "AU" Lot No. 3048 whre it was described by Lyn as:

Wow! This is a barely circulated high grade star that is a bit close at the bottom, but has never been fooled with. Extra nice for a star note......"

Well, it has now. Very few nice original large size notes even exist anymore. Very sad. But with these kind of markups, you can see the motivation.

Before that, I owned the note [yes I was the consignor.....] having plucked it off eBay maybe 5+ years ago. Other than being close at the bottom, a nice high grade star [very high in the census]. It hammered for $2,200. You can "Buy It Now" for only $6,500.00!

I emailed David Lawrence to tell him that the note is now processed and is not Uncirculated. I am curious as to what kind of response I get.


Comments

  • TheRockTheRock Posts: 7,855 ✭✭
    WOOOOOO DOOOOGIES !!!! That is one of the best examples I have ever seen or heard. I would love to here what DL says. Keep us posted.



    image

    "GOT TO LOVE THEM SMALL SIZE DEUCES, SC's, LT's & FRN's"

    John DeRocker
    President/CEO
    The Rocks Collectables, LLC
    TRC, LLC
    jderocker003@gmail.com
    SPMC Member - LIFETIME
    EBAY - TRC, LLC

  • DL is primarily a coin dealer.. I wonder what his reputation is on that side of the fence.
    Tim
  • TheRockTheRock Posts: 7,855 ✭✭
    DL sells tons of notes, but they are WAY over priced as you can see. Anywhere from 20-50% in my opinion.

    "GOT TO LOVE THEM SMALL SIZE DEUCES, SC's, LT's & FRN's"

    John DeRocker
    President/CEO
    The Rocks Collectables, LLC
    TRC, LLC
    jderocker003@gmail.com
    SPMC Member - LIFETIME
    EBAY - TRC, LLC

  • It isn't surprising that this note is overgraded. It happened to me as well. I sold a AU '02 red seal and it ended up in a CGA Gem66 or 67 (can't remember) holder in a Knight sale Est. 6000-8000!!! It is no wonder how you know who was able to collect 50 state nationals!!!
    Banned for Life from The Evil Empire™!
    Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
    Monty...


  • << <i>It isn't surprising that this note is overgraded. It happened to me as well. I sold a AU '02 red seal and it ended up in a CGA Gem66 or 67 (can't remember) holder in a Knight sale Est. 6000-8000!!! It is no wonder how you know who was able to collect 50 state nationals!!! >>



    I agree, and he visits this board daily and has never responded to the questions brought up to him or to the accusations and evidence of overgrading. I got my July BNR today and it just disappoints the heck out of me to see Carl Bombara, a very conservative grader in my opinion, extoll the virtues of CGA grading in their full page ads.
    Small town retailer- small town collector
    Looking for Illinois Nationals from Whiteside, Henry and Carroll Counties- especially 1st and 2nd Charters

    Mark





  • << <i> agree, and he visits this board daily and has never responded to the questions brought up to him or to the accusations and evidence of overgrading. >>



    Silence sometimes speaks volumes.
    Pete
  • johnjinxjohnjinx Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭
    CGA's reputation is not going to get any better as more and more people find out about their grading problems. If they don't change their act soon, they are going to be in for a lot of trouble. It would be interesting to see some of the CGA sellers and supporters try to explain some of these issues with us here.
  • Don't worry, I'm sure KentuckyJ will be stepping in soon to defend CGA.

    RJ
  • KentuckyJKentuckyJ Posts: 2,925
    > Don't worry, I'm sure KentuckyJ will be stepping in soon to defend CGA

    No. I think I'm through being a part of these bash CGA threads. I bought a CGA 58 (from DLRC) that someone, maybe one of you, bought raw as either a choice or gem unc. I already know there is more than one side to this CGA grading story.

    Bashing David Lawrence... now them is fitein werds !

    I'm a big fan of DLRC. I don't give a rats azz what any of you might think about their prices. DLRC is the best, in more ways than one. It's a pleasure to recommend them as a great source of quality coins/currency and excellent customer service.

    KJ

    edited to add: I've many times been genuinely pleased with the prices my family has received from DLRC image
    image
  • I don't think there's any DLRC bashing going on in this thread. For all we know, he probably doesn't know about this note's grade in it's previous life. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.

    As for TheRock's comment on prices, well, "overpriced" is a matter of opinion in the marketplace. I think modern MS-69 FRN's are overpriced, that doesn't mean they are to those who pay high prices for them.

    I'm glad DLRC has treated KJ well in the past, and it's that kind of input that is beneficial for the discussion! I think the focus here is on the note and it's TPG discrepancy, rather than the seller. Unless DLRC responded to gnat, or failed to change anything in light of his email.

    Just because a dealer sells overgraded notes in TPG holders doesn't make them part of the problem unless they know the note's history and do not inform potential buyers. I think the seller should be given the benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise.
    Tim
  • TheRockTheRock Posts: 7,855 ✭✭
    KJ, let me be the first to appoligize to you if I sounded like I was bashing DLRC. I respect DL as one of the most valuable dealers there is. I think his understanding of coins is unmistakable and most likely the same is true for currency. He is very well respected and I for one HAVE paid some very high prices for some coins that I needed, knowing full well that I was paying a premium because I needed the coin. I thought that I was clear in my earlier response to the thread that "In My Opinion" I thought his currency was overpriced. This was not intended to say that DL was in any fashion unethical, misleading or otherwise. I appoligize if I was not clear.

    "GOT TO LOVE THEM SMALL SIZE DEUCES, SC's, LT's & FRN's"

    John DeRocker
    President/CEO
    The Rocks Collectables, LLC
    TRC, LLC
    jderocker003@gmail.com
    SPMC Member - LIFETIME
    EBAY - TRC, LLC

  • KentuckyJKentuckyJ Posts: 2,925

    Rock and Tsimmerdown, thanks for your comments and clarifications. You can count me in as interested in whether or not gnat gets a reply from DLRC. My dealings with DLRC have been mostly on the coin side, although I have bought both large and small size from them. I've sometimes wondered who on the DLRC staff is in charge of their currency offerings.

    All best wishes image

    KJ


    image
  • TheRockTheRock Posts: 7,855 ✭✭
    Thanks KJ. No hard feelings here.

    "GOT TO LOVE THEM SMALL SIZE DEUCES, SC's, LT's & FRN's"

    John DeRocker
    President/CEO
    The Rocks Collectables, LLC
    TRC, LLC
    jderocker003@gmail.com
    SPMC Member - LIFETIME
    EBAY - TRC, LLC

  • Looks like the note is gone off Ebay.
  • gnatgnat Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭
    To follow up. I received a reply from DLRC who thanked me for the heads up and stated they were pulling the auction. They also said they would send it CGA for a resubmit re: the grade.

    You can not expect any better response and would seem to confirm the integrity of the seller....


  • 0882208822 Posts: 5,021
    Dear Mr Gnat; While you and Vince will paint me as the devil, I know you do not know me. I run several businesses and do it the best of my ability. I put my best foot forward every day. I am a well considered man, and try to do the right thing in the right way. I come from a great family and want to make them proud of me. I passionately love paper money, have never doctored a note (I have sent a few to a professional restorer simply to make them collectible) and am very interested in the long term preservation of amazing rarities. I have been blessed having lots of fun in numismatics. I have the respect of most of my peers. I study my fields of endeavor every day. I am a competitive businessman and the price of success (as told me in Memphis by Zollie Kelman) is jealousy. I have registered thousands of transactions as buyer and seller of coins and paper currency and I have satisfied every single participant in every trade. I have honored every single obligation I have ever made in this business. I can look at myself in the mirror, and someday when my newlywed and I have kids, I am sure they will be proud of me. I will no longer respond to the charges and innuendo and hate you have been spewing toward me. I will be living my life to the fullest.
    Nobody Pays More! image
    Trophy National Banknotes
    redseals, brownbacks, statistical rarities, entire state and regional collections, first charters, no. #1 notes!
    ---------------------------------------------
  • Thanks 08822 for the nice post. But for those of us who don't know......who are you???
    Coyn

    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Napoleon , Animal Farm by George Orwell 1945
  • heh that's Jess Lipka
  • beware of insect TOH
    Yesterday is a cancelled check. Tomorrow is a promissory note. Today is cash.
  • I was prety sure DL was one of the good guys.



  • gnatgnat Posts: 4,929 ✭✭✭
    Dear Mr. Lipka: Thanks for what I am sure are heartfelt words, but just as you, most of us love this hobby, want our loved ones to be proud of us and try to have successful careers.

    But to the point, why are so many processed notes getting slabbed by CGA at grades they certainly are not? Don't you and Pat consult Martin Gengerke's census, read auction catalogs, and have the experience necessary to determine if a note has been fooled with?

    You are a fixture at almost every major auction, are one of the largest consignors to (and purchasers at) many major auctions and, as you proclaim, are considered one of the leading experts in National Currency. So what gives?

    No one suggested that you personally process notes. But without any question a large number of processed notes are ending up in CGA holders graded as though they were the "real thing."
  • Here is another suspect. This note is in Don Kelly's census as an AU. It looks like a nice note from a distance. I would have to see it up close to make a determination.

    Woodstock Ill
  • Mr. Lipka took the opportunity to attack the messenger and not the message. Gnats unfortunate use of the words " federal indictment " actually brought him to the discussion, but he responded by defending his honor and integrity instead of answering the very real questions concerning his companies grading. By doing so, he was able to remove himself from the discussion as quickly as he entered it, without really saying anything, except that he wouldn't discuss it again. Too bad, I would like to hear his side of the debate.
    Small town retailer- small town collector
    Looking for Illinois Nationals from Whiteside, Henry and Carroll Counties- especially 1st and 2nd Charters

    Mark
  • Do you guys think there may be a chance these bills may have been expertly doctored. To turn an AU bill into Gem, well words cannot describe how experts can make this decision, knowing there reputation is connected to this transaction. I would arrive to a conclusion that some form of corruption is involved in this equation.


    What I'm trying to say is that These notes may not be overgraded by CGA on purpose. CGA has just been tricked by a processed note.

    It seems some notes are perfect canidates for processing.

    It seems these notes have been slabbed, cut, processed, then resubmitted to a company that doesn't guard are recognize this kind of fraud.

  • Mr. Lipka, by self-admission, has been collecting since a teenager. He is one of the most respected buyers,sellers and collectors of rare currency. He has handled more notes than you probably ever will. He's not going to miss a doctored note.
    Small town retailer- small town collector
    Looking for Illinois Nationals from Whiteside, Henry and Carroll Counties- especially 1st and 2nd Charters

    Mark
  • So Are you replying to my post? If so well here is my response.

    "Mr. Lipka, by self-admission, has been collecting since a teenager. He is one of the most respected buyers,sellers and collectors of rare currency. He has handled more notes than you probably ever will. He's not going to miss a doctored note. "


    So he's not going to miss a doctored note. He is going to notice it and knowingly grade it as a gem. Well I thought corruption in my point of view was on the other side of the fence, The person who doctors the note. According to you, this is wrong. I'd rather be stupid than fully responsible for bad morals. How do you know he cannot miss a processed note. Where is your proof. I see proof he can. Or that he can't and is knowingly raising the grade. Where is the motive for something like this. I'd think someone is making purchasing and sales from a 3rd person ghost account or acquaintance. Otherwise your commiting reputation suicide.

    If your trying to defend Mr. Lipka, you have failed. I think Hhim and C.G.A. are garbage! Due to Gnat's stated proof. PROOF!

    Keep the gravy train coming gnat. Nothing wrong with the truth....for most people.

    Here is an analogy!
    Anyone here ever heard of Enron? You know with those accountants who have handled more statements of cash-flow than I ever will. Also they will never miss an accounting mistake. How do I know....self admission by these accountants that they have been accounting since teenagers. (do you know how stupid that sounds.)

    Thanks!
  • "I am a competitive businessman and the price of success (as told me in Memphis by Zollie Kelman) is jealousy"


    I disagree 08822


    The price of success is sacrifice. Your own sacrifice, or the sacrifices of others. jealousy comes with the territory.


  • << <i>So Are you replying to my post? If so well here is my response. >>


    yes, i was replying to your post.



    << <i>Mr.Lipka, by self-admission, has been collecting since a teenager. He is one of the most respected buyers,sellers and collectors of rare currency. He has handled more notes than you probably ever will. He's not going to miss a doctored note. "


    So he's not going to miss a doctored note. He is going to notice it and knowingly grade it as a gem. Well I thought corruption in my point of view was on the other side of the fence, The person who doctors the note. According to you, this is wrong. I'd rather be stupid than fully responsible for bad morals. How do you know he cannot miss a processed note. Where is your proof. I see proof he can. Or that he can't and is knowingly raising the grade. Where is the motive for something like this. I'd think someone is making purchasing and sales from a 3rd person ghost account or acquaintance. Otherwise your commiting reputation suicide. >>


    I am not committing reputation suicide. I too would like to know why there is a doctored note in a CGA Gem holder. This is what we are debating and why we are asking one of the owners of CGA to respond.



    << <i>If your trying to defend Mr. Lipka, you have failed. I think Hhim and C.G.A. are garbage! Due to Gnat's stated proof. PROOF! >>


    I am not defending Mr. Lipka, I want him to defend himself.



    << <i>Keep the gravy train coming gnat. Nothing wrong with the truth....for most people.

    Here is an analogy!
    Anyone here ever heard of Enron? You know with those accountants who have handled more statements of cash-flow than I ever will. Also they will never miss an accounting mistake. How do I know....self admission by these accountants that they have been accounting since teenagers. (do you know how stupid that sounds.)

    Thanks! >>


    You need a better understanding of the english language before you call someone else stupid. Next time ask for clarification on a point before resorting to namecalling. You have now managed to make this thread about you instead of Mr. Lipka's grading.

    edited for improper quotes
    Small town retailer- small town collector
    Looking for Illinois Nationals from Whiteside, Henry and Carroll Counties- especially 1st and 2nd Charters

    Mark
  • OH-kay yu R knot defending MR lipka>

    Me dont understand english.

    Whuteva you say. My thread now!

  • FRNAllstar, you're new to the boards, and an obvious newcomer to the hobby. Do you know gnat or JL personally? Do you have experience with CGA or the expertise required to spot a doctored note? If not, you shouldn't bad mouth people and companies that you know relatively little about simply because people on a forum (who you also know little about) are criticising them.

    RJ

  • tell yourself the same thing when criticizing a fellow board member.


    "you shouldn't bad mouth people and companies that you know relatively little about simply because people on a forum (who you also know little about) are criticising them."

    your quote alfalfa!


  • So i'm crazy when I say C.G.A. is garbage. NO. It's my opinion. So don't try an attack my crudentials. Im not the one manipulating or being manipulated(C.G.A.). Either way you look at it. This hurts the hobby.


  • johnjinxjohnjinx Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭
    FRN, most people here is anti-CGA so that is not really the issue here. What the problem here is that you are very defensive. We are all here to post and share our opinions but there is really no need to get upset or to attack another poster. Lighten up on your posts and I'm sure people will respond in kind.
  • "Crudentials"?
    Buying Tennessee, southern National Bank Notes, large hype (I mean type) and now, grudgingly, coins.

    Small-time dealer in our country's legal tender.

    Never be haughty to the humble, or humble to the haughty.--- Jefferson Davis
  • credentials!
  • Dirty dentures?image
  • anyone else wanna beat a dead horse?
  • That's a "dead grading service", not dead horse!!!
    www.papermoneyassure.com
  • Good answer!
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