Just what is so special about "refractors"?

Brian48

This is a card that I've been trying to get for a while now to simply plug a hole in my Clemens collection, but I've never brought myself to pay the incredibly high price for it. Now I know these cards are limited print runs, but they can't be more scarcer than some of the #/25's, #/50's, #100's, etc. that been issued since '93. From an aesthetics stand point, it's not even a pretty card to look at. So does anyone know why these cards are darn popular?

DaBigHurt

They use to be somewhat scarce, but the last year or two have seen a few dealers absolutely flood the market with 1993 Finest refractors, which leads me to believe quite a bit of this stuff may have come out the back door of Topps.

TheCARDKid

That set use to book for $15,000 or $20,000 if I remember correctly. I'm suprised they still sell for so much.

lawnmowerman

I guess its kinda like, why have just plain ice cream when you can have ice cream with sprinkles on it. A little sparkle to make us go wooh.

Matt

boggs

Demand is why they go for so much. I couldnt afford a Boggs 12 years ago 300.00 to 600.00 ( probably could but wasnt going to pay that much) at its peak. At 75.00 100X more people can afford them. People who wanted them now ...still want them today to fill that hole in their collection. Again demand and to fill those pesky holes!

Stone193

If you go back, before 1990, pretty much all cards were created equal - the advent of "tiffany" meant I could have the same kind of card with "gloss" - then printers started getting creative - there was UV coating, Dufex, chrome technology etc.

I'm thinking that Topps in 1993, was the first to come out with the "chrome" set - and a parallel "refractor" set - different numbers have been thrown around but now, I believe, the number for each refractor is 250.
Not even that rare - but I'm willing to believe that since it was the inaugural set - the demand moves in that direction along with what boggs has said - individual star collectors adds to the ante.

Just a guess
mike

SoFLPhillyFan

Topps now usually has three or four types of refractors per issue.

Regular, black, gold, and the ever popular red Xfractor.

Depending on the product they can range from 500 issued down to 25.

Why are they so special?

Because I can sell them for mucho dinero.

My highest so far in the last month is $195, w/ auto, and that is an '05 issue.

It's hard though to keep that wave going. It takes cases and cases of the right product.

Keith

ajw

I always heard the rumored production run for this set was 241, or some odd, non-round, number like that. I'm bidding on a Will Clark right now. I was the underbidder on the last one and really, really want to win one soon. I don't know if they really "should" be worth what they go for, but then again...that's probably true for every card, isn't it?

I'm normally more inclined to buy 10 Will Clarks I don't have for $10 each rather than one card for $100, but sometimes you just gotta have it.

DaBigHurt

Anyone who seriously follows the 1993 Finest refractors will tell you that there is no way there are only 241 issues of each card in the set. Heck, ebayer bbcardco has sold about 100 1993 Finest refractors EACH WEEK for the last year and change!

Boopotts

"It's hard though to keep that wave going. It takes cases and cases of the right product."


I hope you're not implying that you're breaking cases of modern stuff and flipping for a profit. Some of us may have been born in the morning, but not this morning....

TNP777

I've had my '93 Finest refractor Brett Butler for quite some time now, but have seen a couple dozen (at least) hit the Bay since I got it. Hard to say how many are really out there.

Geordie

N162Collector

Bbcardco has been listing an alarming number of 93 PSA 9 Refractors recently. Where the hell are they coming from?

PhilG

Bob of Bbcardco is breaking up 15 sets for a customer. Last time I talked to Bob he had about 800 left to sell. I am not sure if those are going to hit Ebay. Rumor has it that three sets are being kept. Also an unknown quantity has been graded. As for number of refractors per player, the official rumor is 241. That’s based on a published case count of 4000 and an insertion rate of 1 per 18 packs or 1 per box. I tend to like 293 per which is an insertion rate of 1 per 15 packs. Some boxes did have 2 refractors.

Disclaimer: I have 2230 – 1993 Refractors. I am a bit biased.

Phil

I may have gone a bit overboard collection of 93 Finest refractors

Lothar52

CDsNuts

Phil,
Very impressive. The Randy Myers collectors must hate you. Also, I believe there are 250 or 300 of each card. The stated print run and pull odds would dictate 241 are out there, but I know for a fact that Topps kept at least a few sets in their vault, one which was sold to a dealer and broken up for singles at a National in St. Louis years ago (I bought many of them). I even saw the box they were originally in that said "Property of Topps" or something like that. I have never heard of more than 1 coming out of a box so I'm not sure that's true. And if it were 1/15 packs that would mean there would be two in every 6th box which I know for a fact isn't true.

To answer Brian's orginal question, what makes any card valuable? Why does a 1994 SP Arod go for a lot more than a random 1/100 Arod when there are literally 10s of thousands of them out there? It's not always about rarity, rather supply and demand. Simply put, more people want these cards than they want other parallels. The Finest set was truly the 1st superpremium product and only cooled off in 1994 when the market overcorrected itself to a hot product that collectors got tired of hearing about (happens all the time). In 95 they picked back up and have maintained a solid value, although some of the major stars in the set aren't bringing 1k+ like they used to (Maddux, McGwire, Griffey, Piazza....). Still, this is the set that really had people going after high dollar parallels which are still collected to this day as each new set comes out. Also, I think the set has incredible eye appeal to most collectors.


Lee

Stone193

<< <i>Phil,

To answer Brian's orginal question, what makes any card valuable? Why does a 1994 SP Arod go for a lot more than a random 1/100 Arod when there are literally 10s of thousands of them out there? It's not always about rarity, rather supply and demand. Simply put, more people want these cards than they want other parallels. The Finest set was truly the 1st superpremium product and only cooled off in 1994 when the market overcorrected itself to a hot product that collectors got tired of hearing about (happens all the time). In 95 they picked back up and have maintained a solid value, although some of the major stars in the set aren't bringing 1k+ like they used to (Maddux, McGwire, Griffey, Piazza....). Still, this is the set that really had people going after high dollar parallels which are still collected to this day as each new set comes out. Also, I think the set has incredible eye appeal to most collectors.


Lee >>


Good points Lee!

As I said earlier and Lee has so well phrased - in the modern world, this is a Landmark set - and to date - IMO, one of the best of the super-premium prints.

mike

DerekD

Wow Phil!!!! That is some list you got there. What's your take on the number made of the one's listed as SPs? Do you think they all run about the same or are some shorter than others?

Derek

pandrews

Phil, i have 13 Ron Gants.. (12 raw + 1 PSA 9).. i dont know why i have them, i just went for awhile buying every one i found..

ajw

Ironic that this thread comes up today. I just won my Will Clark refractor an hour ago. I'm really pleased with it and I think I got it for a good price. It instantly goes to the front of my collection.

Shiny Green Card

bjork73

In 1993, a production run of 250-300 cards was extraordinarily rare, and it got collectors in a tizzy, along with the sheer novelty of the cards (it changes color in the light! oooooooh ). I remember when commons were at least $100 a pop and a couple cards topped $2K, and a card shop in Vegas (Smokey's is the name of it I think) offered the set for $85,000 Anybody who wanted to own them back in the heyday can now get their nostalgia trip for a fraction of the price, hence the solid prices. And unlike the 95-96 Mystery Finest Bordered Refractors, it doesn't seem like Topps had a majority of the sets in the vault waiting for an eager market BTW if anybody has a Gwynn they wouldn't mind parting with, LMK

mudflap02

Thanks for chiming in Phil. I've been amazed by your set since I saw a link to it on the SGC forums a year or so ago. I started doing the set, but stopped about 20 cards in and sold them to another poster on the boards (just enough time to have my 8 and 9 slabs cracked into 9's and 10's.) Any insight into bobbabo1? He seems to have a TON of them, and has for quite some time. Do you think there's any way to reproduce these?

Stone193

<< <i>Do you think there's any way to reproduce these? >>


Damn Mud
That's a scary thought! People already think the print run is bogus.

mike

N162Collector

<< <i>Do you think there's any way to reproduce these? >>



No. The refractive coating is under the first layer of chrome (or whatever substance it is). If you tried to add refraction, you would destroy the card doing so.

DaBigHurt

Topps has shown over and over again, they'll let stuff out their backdoors. 1994-95 Finest Refractor Jordan anyone?

Bbcardco has dumped THOUSANDS of '93 finest refractors onto the market. His supply is apparently limitless and I personally, doubt his story about selling 15 sets for a consignor. If he admits to having 15 sets to break up, you can count on there being a lot more available.

Then when you add the other "regular" sellers of the 93 refractors who throw up 50 or so of the same cards (tewksbury, felix jose, etc) on top of the Bbcardco auctions, you understand why I'm extremely skeptical about the so-called "limited" print runs.

N162Collector

bsfastball

I'll let you know, prices for PSA 10 cards are INSANE. $500 minimum for a common. Low pop PSA 9 commons can go for $300+. It is a really popular set.

pandrews

i agree with n162collector.. 8 months is probably about how long ive been following them, and in that time is when ive picked up 13 gants..

DaBigHurt

In the future, perhaps you should stop and attempt to comprehend a post before making a moron out of yourself in front of everyone.

I never said anyone posted 50 of the SAME card. I said you have sellers (like Gourstar and Cp1525) who are the "regulars" that are always auctioning off batches of 50 or so refractors that are made up of the Tewksburys, Felix Joses, Schilling, Kruk, etc...

Yeah..the 15 sets claim is probably true. Why? BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU OMG!

ydsotter

N162... I can't belive you'd take it to that level. It's acceptable to get angry or argue... but name calling and and writing about squirting bodily fluids on other people is nasty. You should be ashamed.

I like collecting refractors... They are the only modern cards I collect... it's fun to chase them down... and it gives me a chance to collect a player like Bernie Williams or Mariano Rivera with some focus...
I put no thought to the value of the cards or future value...

I must admit... these 5 levels of refractors.... #'ed to 5,4,3,2,100 etc is quite annoying and starting to turn me away... The point was collecting one or two... maybe three cards of a player from a particular year...

I also like the ultra platinums...

Brian48

<< <i>
Disclaimer: I have 2230 – 1993 Refractors. I am a bit biased.

Phil

I may have gone a bit overboard collection of 93 Finest refractors >>



Holy crap.

Stingray

Does anyone remeber in the 93-94 Topps finest basketball (first year for hoops), how some boxes were packaged with one refractor per pack. Boy did some dealers make a killing off of those packs, when they found one of those boxes.

Stingray

ndleo

The 1993 Finest Refractors has to be the best looking set of the 1990's. It has a retro/modern feel, very tough to accomplish.

Too bad they didn't put in a nice Jeter RC.

goudeygold

Despite all this questionable rarity there are dozens ending in 10 hours that have no bids for under $10.

I also remember the craze but have no input on the conspiracy theory. It very well could be that a relative few people hoarded them up trying to sway the markets only to realize the hype machine won again and now they are all getting burned... BAD.

Remember... like everything modern, once it peaks it ain't going back. That said, these prices seem pretty reasonable for one of the most legendary modern sets ever made.

GG

skigropple

DBH, I love your posts and you did get attacked but you should read your post.



<< <i>Then when you add the other "regular" sellers of the 93 refractors who throw up 50 or so of the same cards (tewksbury, felix jose, etc) on top of the Bbcardco auctions, you understand why I'm extremely skeptical about the so-called "limited" print runs. >>



I read it as 50 or so of the same cards. For the most basic reasons people want what they could/would not afford when this set first came out.

Jim

MarkLee

Whether anybody read DBH's post as he intended it or as it was misinterpreted, the attack was completely rude and unneccessary. A little civility goes a long way!

DaBigHurt

I do agree that I should have worded things a bit better as to avoid any confusion.

Anyone with a passing knowledge in 1993 finest refractors will know that in no way, would it be possible that anyone would offer up 50 1993 Finest refractor Bob Tewksburys. If someone was unsure as to what I meant, all they had to do was ask me to clarify my statement. There's no room for such obscene posts on a PSA board from this N162Collector fella.

The board has been able to survive this long without posters resorting personal attacks and throwing out crude sexual innuendos at the first sign of disagreement. Let's not start now.

pandrews

<< <i>Despite all this questionable rarity there are dozens ending in 10 hours that have no bids for under $10.
>>



guaranteed they will not stay under $10..

Stingray

Is is true that some were harder to get. I am a bagwell collector and that one is hardly ever up for sale and I thought Beckett (for what it's worth) stated that there were several 93 refractors that were short printed?

Stingray

DaBigHurt

Years ago, certain 93 refractors were indeed harder to find than others. Namely Schilling, Sabo, Kruk, Juan Gonzalez, Harold Reynolds, Alex Cole, Bryan Harvey, Bagwell, Moises Alou and others. That no longer is the case with the floodgates opened up in the last year and change. Kruks and Sabos went for around $200-300 raw about 2 years ago. You can pick the same cards up raw for about $30-50 now.

I'm still very interested in putting together a set, but the challenge is really no longer there. If you have enough money, just bid on ebay. Two years ago, only a handful of 93 refractors came up for auction every week, and part of the fun was looking for the cards you wanted and having to wait and be patient. Now, if you don't get the Will Clark or Al Martin refractor you've been looking for, don't worry. Another 100 or so refractors will be making their way to auction next week and the week, and the week after that, and the week after that, and the week after that, etc...

goudeygold

I think the SP was simply dealers hoarding and keeping them out of sight.

GG

SoFLPhillyFan

This would be a good time to remind everyone to practice safe sex.

gosteelers

'Once it peaks, it never goes back'...How about this one, ungraded, no less!

Willie Greene

Mark

gosteelers

Another response, this one to DBH. I've been watching these for about 9 months or so and I have seen about 5 Felix Jose's, not 50...

Mark

DaBigHurt

Nine months and only five? Whew..glad it's not one of the THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of 1993 Finest refractors to hit the market in the last year and change.

bengineno9

Wow, Never thought Tewks would be brought up on these boards!

Brian48

Well, I broke down and actually tried to bid on this one. Had the high bid up until the last minute until I got sniped

ajw

Dotcha kinda wonder what the decision making process was like when Topps was planning the first Finest set? It was *so* different than anything that had ever been seen, I suspect that the idea must have been met with some resistance. I think the refractors were the first parallel set, so there was probably some resistance to that idea, as well. There's probably a really good magazine article in that process, if you can find the right people and get them to talk about it.

NickM

Topps had already put out Topps gold parallels of the regular set, and 1st Day Production parallels of Stadium Club.

Nick

Stingray

Does anyone remember the 1992 Topps Finest football set that they put out. Came is a plastic case, that I believe was the first of the finest cards. Wonder what that goes for now, was hot when it first came out, but again they made a ton of them.





Stingray

DaBigHurt

Another week, another 100 plus 1993 Finest refractors up for sale..

Eddo33

I was told in 93 when these came out, Beckett had people buying all of these up. They then in turn put out there monthly price guide and made these cards rarer then gold and sold all them at the height of there price.

Don't know how true it is but wouldn't surpise me.