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Has the "Popularity" balloon fizzled out on the clad FB Roosies?
Stooge
Posts: 4,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
Whats happening lately to the FULL BAND Roosies? I have seen very little, if any updates on the set registry and prices are falling.
I spoke to another collector who states that another high grade set (Who shall remain nameless due to confidentiality) may fall to the wayside!
This collector also stated that PCGS seems to have really "Tightened up on the FB designation. FB pops have been very steady at current #'s. I have seen only a few big time coins made ie: a 1996-D MS68FB and 2 1981-D MS68FB along with 25 or so 1981-P in MS67FB. Pop's are still on the steady increase on 1996-W's in both 7 & 8 FB.
Are collectors losing interest?
Later, Paul.
I spoke to another collector who states that another high grade set (Who shall remain nameless due to confidentiality) may fall to the wayside!
This collector also stated that PCGS seems to have really "Tightened up on the FB designation. FB pops have been very steady at current #'s. I have seen only a few big time coins made ie: a 1996-D MS68FB and 2 1981-D MS68FB along with 25 or so 1981-P in MS67FB. Pop's are still on the steady increase on 1996-W's in both 7 & 8 FB.
Are collectors losing interest?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
0
Comments
1. Virtually no top pop coins have been made in the series in the past 6 months. In fact, from my personal experience, the clad Roosies now rank at or near the very top (right up there with modern Jeffs, Ike Dollars and SBA's) of the modern denominations in difficulty to slab the "wonder grades".
2. When top pops are made they may likely be very costly and the demand very strong for them (if even from just one or two collectors). Collectors recognize this.
3. "JHF" is a true ambassador of the series - there is really no "competition' that we often see in other series and that tends to "drive" other series. Who really is that motivated about knocking him out of first place at this point? Frankly, IMHO, when JHF picked up the finest coins from the "OnlyRoosies" collection, it may have influenced the motivational levels of some of the participants in this series.
4. Cycles develop and collectors often tend to return to the series where relative value is seen. Today, I sold a Sac dollar with roughly the same "pop" as a (20) year earlier top pop Roosie Dime for roughly 4x the price of the Roosie. Sacs are a red hot series - no question (and I have no plans to sell any coins from my personal #2 Registry set), but, the clad Roosie series, IMHO, looks "dirt cheap" right now relative to other contemporary coin series - I have little doubt the series will, once again, have its "day in the sun", especially with the interesting "comps" at this point.
Wondercoin
Where I disagree with you is on the Full Band designation. I think in the early days, PCGS was sloppy and let quite a few coins through with the Full Band designation that clearly missed. Now, I think they've just gotten more accurate.
Maybe the early sloppiness was intentional, to build a population (and a collecting fever) for Full Bands, amongst Roosie fans (fanatics?). Maybe PCGS's greater accuracy now is just the result of more experience. But either way, I don't think they're being obnoxiously tough about the FB designation.
And HaletJ, I agree with you, too. Even though I collect the Roosies in Full Band, I think it's a totally artificial designation meant solely to bring some "heat" to collecting them. Here's what I mean:
-- When you look at the Standing Liberty Quarters in Full Head, the Full Head makes a real difference in how nicely the coin looks.
-- Ditto for Full Horizontal Shield Lines on the Shield Nickels and Two Cent pieces. Those are two designations that PCGS doesn't make but which are worth collecting for anyway, because they make such an enormous difference in the eye appeal.
-- And the Full Steps on the Jeffersons are a metaphor for a good strike on the reverse and there are many details, including doors and windows, that are much clearer on the full steppers than on the zero to three steppers. So even though you often need a loupe to tell the difference between a 4.75 stepper and a 5.0 stepper, full steps does affect eye appeal.
But the full bands have almost no impact on the eye appeal of the Roosies. The torch and lettering on the reverse are boldly struck and the difference in eye appeal between a full-bands Roosie and a non full-bands Roosie is essentially ... zip, nil, zero. An true MS 68 non-full band is almost always better looking than an MS67 full band.
So why do I collect the full banders? Call me crazy, but the Roosies were too easy before the designation. They weren't fun. There was no difficulty, no challenge to the series.
Now, with the full band designation, there are many b_ll busters to nail down, and that makes the series challenging and fun.
And Mr. Wondercoin: I have no idea what you mean when you say I am "a true ambassador of the series." I collect them and enjoy them, but it's not like I go out and and make stump speeches for 'em.
And I was shocked to learn from your memo above that the Sac's are 4 times as expensive for comparable scarcity. I don't want to offend the Sac collectors but to me, the Roosie dimes are far more attractive. So I thought the collector base for the Roosies would be MUCH larger than for the Sac's, and that would need be reflected in the prices. But obviously I'm wrong. Tis a puzzlement.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun!
JHF - The collector base for PCGS coins, as measured strictly by the registry is also 2x-3x larger right now for MS Sac collectors vs. MS clad Roosie collectors. Consider this:
TOTAL REGISTRY SETS FOR MS SAC DOLLARS - 155.
TOTAL REGISTRY SETS FOR MS SAC DOLLARS THAT ARE 100% COMPLETE - 41.
TOTAL REGISTRY SETS FOR MS CLAD ROOSIES - 60.
TOTAL REGISTRY SETS FOR MS CLAD ROOSIES THAT ARE 100% COMPLETE - 9.
Indeed, MS Sacs are now one of the most popular registry sets in the entire Registry. IMHO, this create very strong demand for the finest known coins. Indeed, even a top pop MS Sac with a "pop" near 100 coins still routinely trades around $350-$400 (ex: 2001(d) MS68), yet, the same pop modern Jeff nickel or clad Roosie or clad Kennedy, etc. can sell for a tiny fraction of that price (so, it is not just the clad Roosie prices that do not "compare" to the Sacs).
As far as the comment about "ambassador" - IMHO, the reality is simply this - there are some series of coins out there that some collectors would like nothing more than to top the #1 guy for personal reasons (and set a goal to do so). There are other series where this is not the case. I have personal seen this many times in the registry throughout the past 6 years.
Wondercoin
Tim
The Climbing Clads
As for the # of sets and prices vs. Sac's: The Sac is a new coin with liitle work you could complete a high grade (not pop top) in an afternoon on Ebay. To get the nicest coins you have to hunt a little but more over you have to compete with more collectors for fewer coins. With Roosies (clad or Silver) there are so many coins to collect that it is work just to complete the set much less get them all in a very high grade. Eventually once more sets are completed the prices on the top coins will increase as collectors seek upgrades. If you are at the top already you are in the cat bird seat because there is little competition.
I do see, however, that the registry year mint sets will increase demand for a specific date but then again this across the board. I own POP tops for 1968 and don't even have a clad roosie set.
TOTAL REGISTRY SETS FOR MS SAC DOLLARS THAT ARE 100% COMPLETE - 41.
Mitch - There are 114 registry set collectors that have not been able to complete their sets of Sacs?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The work never stops in the modern arena for a modern coin dealer!
Walt - As you know, that 03(d) Sac is an exceedingly tough coin to locate in the MS68 grade. Hardly a day goes by without me thinking about that coin at least once (and how I could possibly fill the half dozen orders I have had on that coin for the past 6-12 months - you too it appears!
Wondercoin
Paul.. I'm still looking for that "04P".
Is this also true of the Roosies? If so, which would you rather have? Thanks for any responses.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
1) I think that the FB craze has died out due to the complete lack of MS FB dimes. I have read countless quotes from Wondercoin, and especially Cladking on how that for years and years, most collectors broke up Mintsets for the other "Favored" denoms and did little or nothing with the dimes. Roosevelt dimes have had little or no collecting interest for years. Rolls are very scarceand were not saved in large quantities. When I started collecting Clad Roosies, there were 12 sets, including my own with only 1 complete set. Now why is that? Because nobody cares.
2) It has also died out due to the extreme effort it takes to complete a set in FB as oppose to NON-FB. Most of the high grade stuff has traded from set to set. There are still a dozen of so dimes that still do not have a decent graded FB coin ie: MS67FB or higher.
3) JHF and RICK both have the highest graded set and have several POP (1/0) dimes and share several POP (2/0) dimes. It can be very discouraging to a collector that would like to be #1 to compete with these 2 sets. I for one will admit that I would like the very best dimes that there are, but I just can't pay these high 3 and sometimes 4 figure prices for these dimes. I am just a humble blue collar worker, which comes to my next statement.
Wondercoin...I find it difficult to hold back a comment regarding yours about JHF. You state that he is "A true ambassador of the series" and even JHF himself asks about this comment. I just don't understand where you come off stating this when (No offense to JHF) all he did was write a check for those dimes. He put no sweat and tears into making those dimes as Onlyroosies has and Rick has for the dimes they made. Also including Datentype who had made countless MS68 Roosies before they where FB. I myself have made a few dimes in my own set and others have my dimes that I have made. I understand that you CANNOT achieve the #1 ranking in a series w/o "Buying" some of the coins in that series.
I myself will give not a single person a challenge in this series due to a competitiveness that drives others, because I have only the drive to compete with myself. If that was the case, I would fill my set with all the MS66's and MS67"s w/o FB that are for sale everyday on eBay and put myself in the top 5 or so.
If the U.S. Mint ever decides to redesign the Roosie dime, I believe you may see a serious interest in this series as been seen with the Sac's, Quarters and the new Nickels. Therefore the Roosie will indeed have its "Day in the sun" again.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Wondercoin
PS The next set to drop from the list will be Rick's Just a hunch!!
and a 96w 68fb sold for $320 (a bit high for the pop) I think.
tim
My passion for clad dimes has not diminished but due to having essentially 3 kids in college, my budget for clad dimes has definitely diminished! I still try to pick up a FB clad dime or two, but I simply can't bid "insane" prices. So, all I can say to the idea that prices are falling is
I also agree with TAP444 (to whom I owe many thanks for his help) that the price of 96-W dimes seems high relative to the pops. I say this even though I do have a 68FB 96-W. A price of $320 for this coin when the pop is 85 seems very high, especially when you consider that these coins did not circulate. I presume that the vast, overwhelming majority of these coins are safe and sound in collectors' mint sets, so I don't consider this coin particularly scarce. On the other hand, the 76-D dime may well stay scarce and so I think its price is tad more justified!
Mark
Moreover, as I see it, you're just telling it like it was, and I agree with you. I like the coins; the obverse especially is attractive, and the coins tone beautifully. But I don't enthuse over them the way I enthuse over the Standing Liberty Quarters or US Philippines.
So, I'm glad Mr. Wondercoin has withdrawn his "ambassador" comment.
You make one other point that's interesting ... With Rick and I splitting so many pop tops, there's no place for a budding young Roosie collector to go. There's a ceiling on their efforts, as it were. Hmmm. Something for me to think about.
Enjoy,
Just Having Fun
I have dealt with most of the Roosie collectors and Paul definitely has more passion for this little metal disc then any
of the others.
As far as the lack of interest in the series I have noticed that collectors step up and start a set and once they realize
that The FB Roosies are a REAL and collectable series they tend to loose interest. Most new comers view the series
as a cheap fix and are not willing to commit the cash or time it would actually take to complete a top 3 set. Time being
the key word here. At one time there were 3 strong buyers, there is now maybe one. No incentive for the makers of
these coins to continue. Not when sacs bring in far more money. I like the stage were at right now. I continue to stock
pile what I feel are the under valued dates for the series, and no I'm not hoarding any 96W in 68FB. Throw me one in
69FB and I'll be all over it.
As far as a higher grade over an FB. I favor the FB. I would much rather have a solid 66FB then a 68 non-FB. I have made
dozens of FB clad and silver Roosies and I will be the first to say PCGS's standard for what was an FB a year ago is
not that standard today. All PCGS had to do was maintain the same standard through out. I would say 15%++ of all clad
FB Roosies if cracked out would not come back FB. This is IMHO the main reason some of the top sets have fallen. I have
to commend Mitch and JHF for focusing on solid FB coins. I can state for a fact that there are no sliders in the Just Having
Fun Set. I also think it is amazing that Rick is tied for the top spot and has made over 50% of his coins. Though I am not
building another set I am accumulating beter dates in the clad series.
JHF said...Maybe the early sloppiness was intentional, to build a population....The problem here is. Where are you going
to sell those coins today. I was recently offered a few pop top Roosies at top dollar. Four to be exact. I was more then willing
to pay the price, Sight Seen. I sent back 2 and kept 2 solely based on the FB designation. I used my own standard for
determining if the designation was acceptable.
Paul said...I myself will give not a single person a challenge in this series due to a competitiveness that drives others,
Paul I disagree. You have more passion then any other clad roosie collector and that passion given the time I know you are
willing to give it will IMHO reward you with the number 1 set some day. There is very little if any competitiveness in the clad
roosie series right now to rise to the top. I know of 2 collectors that have been offered the opportunity to give the number
1 set a run for there money and have passed. The interest just isn't there right now...Right now is the time to be adding to
your set. No one is going to get them from me right now though... Prices, again IMHO are to cheap and the true key and desirable
dates in FB are under valued. Paul, I still say some day you will own THE number 1 set.
JHF said....With Rick and I splitting so many pop tops, there's no place for a budding young Roosie collector to go.
Again I have to disagree. I was once told the Heller Silver set could not be beat and I almost believed it. But I never gave
up my quest to own the finest Silver Roosie set. Its passion and dedication that drives us and I for one believe given enough
time a top clad set could emerge. I'll sit on the side line and wait for that special person. Competition for a top spot will also
hold up values. Lack of, diminishes value. Thats where we are at now.
enjoy the series, I know I still do. I own more Roosies now then I did when I had both my clad and silver sets.
Still
Onlyroosies
commensurate with the pop only to watch another sell for $485. Prices have gone up for quite a
few Silver Roosie dates and I would price a 55D 67FB around $450 right now. If a couple people
get interested who knows what one could bring on eBay. I'll keep my eyes pealed for you.
Nick
Nick: I totally agree with you. While I am selling a great deal of MS clad coinage dated 1965-1998 in top grades to collectors these days, I am also buying surplus product myself to hold, like you, for a future date. We both know, a series like the Roosies is very cyclical. IMHO, it would take all of (2) or (3) new serious "players" and the coins could be "off to the races" again. We also know there are some real "sleepers" in the series in true high grade FB. So, for now, my research continues, especially as I monitor the results of 1000's and 1000's of fresh (broken up) mint sets throughout the series.
Wondercoin
<< <i>You make one other point that's interesting ... With Rick and I splitting so many pop tops, there's no place for a budding young Roosie collector to go. There's a ceiling on their efforts, as it were. Hmmm. Something for me to think about. >>
There is a way for the collectors to after top pop coins... Make them yourself. I admit that I am new to making my own, having only submitted a total of 14 for grading. But out of the first 4 (the free subs you get for joining PCGS) I made 2 top pop coins. The 68-D ms68FB in my set, and the 95-D MS67FB that I sold to a board member. I have a very very limited budget for buying rolls, mint sets, and grading fees. So for me it's going to be a long slow process getting all of what I have set aside to the graders. Also I have been concentrating on the low pop FB's from the 60's and 70's. Where am going with all this? Well people can choose to wait for top pops to show up on ebay teletrade Heritage, or where ever they shop. Then again, don't think all the high grade FB's have been found. Some of the sellers have moved on to other series, but some of us Roosie people are in there digging for the big boys as you read this.
It seems remarkable that there is still so little activity in this series. Yes, there are tens of thousands
of collectors filling the blue folders they bought at Borders or the neighborhood coin shop. There are
many thousands of more collectors seeking uncs for their sets or albums and hundreds upgrading
their sets. The lack of activity shows not so much in the price of pop tops which will gain and fall with
only a few collectors but in the price and availability of the run of the mill gems. Gems are relatively
common among the dimes for most dates and this may be what's causing prices to remain so steady.
Collectors are adding the gems but they haven't yet been able to identify the really tough ones like
the '75-P.
There are still huge numbers of really nice clad dimes in the millions of mint sets that were made but
few realize either how many of these have already been destroyed or the incredible rate at which
they are still being destroyed. It won't be long until raw gems are mostly a thing of the past for most
collectors. Th few mint sets coming on the market will be cherrypicked before collectors see them.
No doubt, as has been pointed out, time is the greatest ally of those who are building sets of these
or holding them for the future. It is a great time to build even top-notch sets.
PS-in the interest of full disclosure I will confess my prejudice against strike designations, which IMHO allocate too much value to too small an aspect of a coin.
CG
CG: While I agree that some collectors are not that motivated to pay $500 for the same grade Roosie that is worth $50 without FB at this time, IMHO, I believe it is more a cyclical phenomenon affecting this series as I mentioned in my first post. And, again, it is not just clad Roosies affected. For example, MS State quarters are still quite costly in the top grades and enormously popular. The early "pop 3-6" coins can (and do) command upwards of $3,000+ per coin. Yet, the MS clad quarters from the 1980-1990's with similar pops are selling for a tiny fraction of that price. For example, a pop 6 clad quarter from the 1990's just cost me under $650 to buy this week. Meanwhile, if I wanted to (with too much time on my hands), I could by a truck load full of MS State Quarter bags to search for additional crown jewels; yet, in the past half dozen years, I am aware of roughly a single handful of MS unsearched bags of clad quarters in existence for the entire 1965-1998 series (are these coins the victims of the quarter slots in Vegas and Atlantic City?)!! If the pop 6 2000(p) Sac Dollar in top grade ever came up for sale, I suspect that would even blow away the state quarter comparison.
In short, I also believe MS Clad Roosies (especially the "one grade under top pop" coins) are relatively cheap right now. Since I enjoy the series, as OnlyRoosies does and many others on this thread do, what better time to "squirrel away some acorns"?
Wondercoin
I have heard about the Sac and Statehood's compared to the Roosies and I have a couple of thoughts. There are several Sac's and countless Statehood Quarters in "Wondergrades" of MS69, so why not the Roosie. Yes there are a few in MS69 and MS69FB, but not compared to the other 2 coins, which are larger and tend to have more nicks and chatter on the surface then the Roosie. Is it due to the lack of effort in searching for these?
Donn Murphy has searched over 100,000 Statehood Quarters to get the top grades, so if I where to search the 1999-date Roosies, the same dates as the Statehood's, then I too may get lucky and achieve these lofty grades.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
for MS69 sacs. There have only been 9 clad Roosies graded MS69FB and most all are accounted for.
Compaired to the pop and what a sac in 69 would sell for, What is an MS69FB clad Roosie worth?.
When a series gets hot its the top grades with low pops that take off in price. I have time on my side.
My 5 MS69FB Clad Roosies are tucked away for a rainy day.....
A couple short comments of mine:
1. Early on , when FB's were a new desig. I sought out such things and sold a few for very good money. But many are damn near next to impossible to find and it gets very frustrating looking for them! One can only spend so much time searching for the little buggers before burnout sets in. Spending all your limited bourse time looking for FB Roosies is NOT FUN! Similarly, going to a coin shop and standing there for hours looking thru mylar mint sets can be extremely uncomfortable. There have been a few "the next day" 's where I was physically exhausted!
2. As many of us are similar age bracket baby-boomers, I at least, am finding it increasingly more difficult to focus on such small coins. I find myself gravitating to larger coins with simple designs, such as Franklins.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I totally agree with you. I have looked at countless mint sets and sometimes, actually most times find nothing, zero, ziltch to send in. I havn't found any raw stuff for a while and I'm in a drought. I did pick up a nice 1996-W which might go MS68FB. I havn't cut it out of the Mylar, but it looks as if it has that dreaded tiny flat spot on the right side of the bottom bands.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.