Monster toned PCGS DMPL/NGC DPL Morgans..How rare are they?

islemangu

In years of internet surfing (not shows) I have only come across this one.
83-P NGC MS66 DPL

How rare are they or do all of the experts here have a few stashed away? Would enjoy seeing them if you have them






My ebay auction(s)

gemtone65

DMPL monster toned Morgans are indeed very rare. Gems are even rarer. I see an average of about one per year, with gems maybe once every 2 years. The last gem I saw, a PCGS66, had an ask price of $6000. I would be very surprised if anyone owns more than a single gem toned DMPL piece -- I don't know anyone who does.

TONEDDOLLARS

I own two gem toned Morgans. One is a 1882-s and the other is a 1898-o. Both were put away by a collector in the fifty's in kraft envolopes and stored with his collection. He was looking to sell some coins and could not believe how these two coins were ruined due to tarnish. I bought both of these coins from him and submitted them for gradind about three years ago.

Edited to add : take a look at my icon that is a 66 DMPL piece

nwcs

I have one DMPL 1880S monster tone. Got it from mbbiker on the board here. It's not gem but it's a very nice MS-62.

TONEDDOLLARS

anyone else own any????

dragon

I have three pretty toned MS65DMPL's and one MS66DMPL.

dragon

braddick

I have a GEM 65PL that is 100% toned, but not a DMPL. It's tough for the Services to capture the DMPL surfaces under the toning and I believe, somewhat frightened to do so, will not usually designate the coin full DM if it is also fully rainbow toned.

They sure are beautiful though when one is seen! GSAGUY has a couple that are outstanding.
These are some of the prettiest coins in Numismatics.

mbbiker

I used to have a really nicely toned ANACS DMPL morgan but i sold it to pay off a new coin, now i regret ever getting rid of it

islemangu

Indeed they are rarer than I thought. I have the one at start of this thread that Laura used to own as well as a NGC 87s DMPL64 darker iridencense that would maybe not be considered a monster but is nice. I sold a 83cc MS65PL monster on ebay at NR about 2 years ago like an idiot that someone sniped away a steal.




My ebay auction(s)

stman

<< <i>That used to be my coin. It is a killer!


Since DMPL Morgans really are first strikes, there aren't a whole lot that get made. Maybe 1/2 of 1% of whats struck could make PL, and even less are DMPL.


DMPL surfaces happen as coins come of the freshly polished dies. The polishing and clarity of the dies wears down quickly. And in some cases (like POST 1900), the dies were poorly polished (they actually used worn Proof dies to save money) and DMPLs are virtually non existant.

Finding a coin in GEM DMPL really is MUCH harder than most people realize. These coins had to survive crude transport, the counting machines, and many other potentially damaging experinces just to get out of the bank! >>




Want to give credit where credit is due. Nice to see a "Major Dealer" being very informative. Thanks!!!

Dog97

I'll second & third what stman said Legend said. Cameo DMPLs are first strikes for sure. Long after the die has lost it's Prooflike qualities a die might clash so it's taken off-line and rebasined thus restoring it's DMPL fields and might not have any cameo contrast at all. Luckily these are few & far between because nobody collects those anyway.
Heavy monster toning will interfer with the depth of the mirrors dropping it down to PL so nicely toned DMPL is a rare thing indeed.
This one didn't scan well but it looks a lot like a Modern Proof with a little peripheral tone: Text

islemangu

Hadleydog

The rarest of the rare for us toned collectors, no doubt about that. Try finding any for sale.
Toneddollars and dragon, would you guys be so kind as to post a picture of the ones you own?

coingame2000

Monster toned DMPL's are very rare. I've been buying and selling monster toned dollars and DMPL's for over thirty years and have only encountered a handful of coins with a combination of beautiful color and deep mirror surfaces. Just prior to the Santa Clara coin show I purchased a spectacular PCGS MS66 1881-S $1 with monster obverse toning. Moreover, it is a genuine black and white cameo which is legitimately scarce when it comes to this particular date. I paid a mega-monster price and haven't decided if I'm going to sell it just yet -- I think I might have to stare at it for a while longer.

Mike

MoneyLA

I saw a small hoard of rainbow toned pcgs ms65dmpl morgans about two years ago... owned by a dealer here in the los angeles area. he would not sell, they were part of his personal collection, he told me. all had spectacular rainbows, bright vivid bands of color and against the dmpl frosting they were spectacular. I pleaded with him to sell me JUST ONE when and if he ever decided to part with one or all of them. his company later went bankrupt and frankly I dont know what happened to his coins, but Ive thought about them from time to time. he sometimes shows up at a local auction or show, but Ive missed him. one day, I will grab him and ask??? those of you in So. Cal. might know him or his business. I dont want to mention names in this public forum, but if you have any info on what happened to the coins -- or to him -- please IM me. yikes they were outstanding. cheers, alan mendelson

gsaguy

A couple of my favorite DMPL toned dollars are end roll toned and reside in my collection. I've also put away a number of other pieces that are DMPL and PL but not too many.

As for as the issue of PCGS' grading of the coins, I find that it's difficult to get PCGS to give the PL or DMPL designation to a coin that's toned. Many that I've bought in PCGS holders that are obviously PL or DMPL are not so designated on the insert. Oh well, doesn't matter once they're cracked out and displayed in my favorite Capital Plastics holder.

GSAGUY

TONEDDOLLARS

I am glad GSAGUY weighed in with his opinion. He has some beautiful dollars that are mirrored. He also has seen a few of mine. I'll try to put up pictures later on, if they come out right. Bryan can feel free to coment on my coins that he has seen.

islemangu

I look forward to seeing but accurately photographying a toned DMPL is a whole another animal in itself. Straight on macro will not impart reality like it does on regular toning. Toneddollars Icon looks really nice. A long macro lens of 200 mm focal length or greater allows a slight tilt for the mirrors to show that will distort somewhat the perceived roundness of the coin but with smallest aperature keeping the front of coin the focus point the entire rest of coin to back will be within dept of field focus. I like Nikon glass not Nikon computers but understand glass can not keep up. I would like to hear and better see from Adrian his work on toned proof works. Keep your secrets but just show us

My ebay auction(s)

Hadleydog

OK. Let's see what you guys think of this one. I am currently purchasing it from Anaconda, and am using his fabulous pictures. It is currently in a PCGS ms64dmpl holder, and has claims to a 65.......although I might be tempted to crack her out and place her in a capital holder, I just loved the way GSAGUYS collection shows.

Dog97

That's very nice, Hadleydog!

ricardouno

As an historical note:

Many of the DMPL's in existence today were originally toned coins. In the early to mid 1970's as prooflike collecting of Morgan Silver Dollars was coming into vogue and the desirability of such pieces was starting to cause a significant divergence in pricing relative to their "BU" counterparts, I witnessed (through many conversations with dealers at the time and "before" and "after" jobs) the "dipping" of a multitude of deep mirrored toned coins. Many of these were originally heavily toned which mostly obscured the mirrors while others were even, perhaps, attractively colored by today's standards of aesthetics. The coins were dipped to demonstrate or reveal the full depth and bloom of the deeply mirrored surfaces and cameo effect which often could only be suggested through the toning.

Reinforcing this activity was the fact that some of the results were absolutely mind-blowing (and hence accompanied by a dramatic increase in price) in that an amazing black and white or else very deep mirrored and cameoed specimen was often uncovered beneath what was essentially perceived as a sort of camouflage of rusting. The fact that many/most/almost all higher quality deeply mirrored Morgans are "white" is in no way a random occurence based on what I observed.

Morganluver

I've owned 4 or 5 beautifully toned DMPLs, a couple of which I sold to Adrian which resold for many multiples. They are definately rare and up till a couple of years ago, could be occasionally found with some amount of luck and searching, for not too crazy of a premium. I should have kept them. You know what they say about hind sight.

islemangu

Very interesting ricardouno on your observations. One question that I know may be a grey area. Those dipped past dmpl toners that are now BandW. Would they make it these days into a PCGS/NGC slab in that they made it more valuable then but misknowingly damaged these coins as well as erasing long term developed color.? You may not be into toning and if not I would be interested into Franks take on this.

BigMoose

Morganluver is correct. They are very hard to come by nowadays, especially in gem. I have one monster toned DMPL Morgan, an 1885 in PCGS 65DMPL. The coin sold as lot #966 in Goldberg's Fairchild Family Trust Collection, May, 2001, and was later handled by Anaconda and was on his website. I bought it from an ebay seller last year and consider myself fortunate to get this piece. This coin was seen by GSAguy and he seemed to like it a great deal. I have not seen another one at auction or on a bourse with great color and deep mirrors with the exception of Anaconda's 1885 in 64DMPL on his website. That coin looks exceptional.

Hadleydog

Ricardouno, I have often wondered about that. If as Laura states that 1/2 of 1% of business strikes were dmpl, and there are literally millions of morgans still around, one would think they would be more common than they are. This would help explain why they are so rare.
OK folks, any more pictures?
Here is an 81-s that I believe is full dmpl (the reverse sure is), although pcgs did not designate it on the holder.

Hadleydog

ttt

topstuf

Rare was the coin show in 1972 where there was not at least one or two dealers with Morgans by rolls by date. Not the 93, 94,95 of course although those were in abundance also.

That's when I started collecting before becoming a dealer 7 years later. Buddy and I used to go to the coin shop every Saturday and pick and pick and pick through dollars. $3 for BU......$5 for P/L (mostly 78s, 79s, 80s, but almost all were white. Whether he dipped them I don't know, but I do know I missed millions of dollars in the future by not loading up on them back then.

Morgans have never been rare. When coins went through the roof in 79-80 they were simply the easiest coin to run national ads on.

But I can't recall many if any TONED P/L's. The thing was to have the WHITEST coins at that time.

ricardouno

Topstuf,

Yes, in the early 1970's dipping of Morgans was extremely prevalent if not universal. I can recall watching a dealer, in his shop in New York City, dip every single toned coin found in an original bag. Even though the dollar amount differential may have been small, that is by today's standards, it was definitely considered worthwhile dipping just about any colored coin if it was to make it more clearly evident just how fully it was mirrored beneath the toning.

As you note, white or untoned coins were the norm and constituted the vast majority of Morgans offered for sale at shows. This was no accident, however, as original bags normally contain at least some notable number of toned pieces. As you point out, at shows in the early 1970's dealers customarily displayed small, almost roll size, stacks of EACH Morgan date in BU condition in their tray (except for a few rare dates) and not a single coin layer as is the case typically today. Yet, virtually all these piles were usually made up of completely untoned specimens.

Would any of the dipped DMPL's or PL's get the nod from PCGS or NGC today? I definitely think many of them would and, furthermore, believe many are presently residing as whitish specimens in 65 or better PL and DMPL holders. Many others, of course, would be of lower grade due to suface problems related to the dipping or the bagmarks which are often accentuated by mirror surfaces and unvealed by the dip. Please note: I am talking about coins which I witnessed getting a SINGLE dip out of an original BU bag (or old time hoard, roll or collection) and NOT dipped coins which were later put in cardboad albums and toned a bit and then were re-dipped eventually making them borderline BU with regard to luster and surface quality.

Additionally, while I know this may be controversial, the number of toned coins, even in non-prooflike condition (including those in certified holders), seems much more visible and prevalent on the market today then it ever was in those "old days". I wonder whether this is because imparting toning to a brilliant white BU coin may make sense to potentially enhance its value, while contemplating toning a deep mirror or plain prooflike may actually be viewed as to risk covering up a most desirable trait.

lonn

Contribution to an eariler discussion...

My 1882 MS65 DMPL in a PCGS holder purchased from Mike DeFalco: