Both sides of the coin - censorship and freedom...and my take on all of this.
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
I can understand both sides of the coin:
David Hall: He paid to create this site. He pays to maintain it and supervise it. He is reasonable in expecting people to appreciate him
by watching what they say on his forum. My strong suspicions are that he doesn't necessarily mind criticism. But some criticism is
rather harsh and seemingly not made in a constructive manner. DH isn't preventing anyone from having freedom of speech, he just
doesn't want to provide a forum for mean-spirited criticism against PCGS. It's like coming to my house for dinner with some other
guests and calling my kids stupid in front of eveyone. You are certainly free to call my kids stupid but i'll be damned if you'll do it
twice while you're in my house. In my opinion, David Hall has been pretty tolerant. Who of us could put up with the kind of
criticism he has put up with? I don't think i'm that tough.
Anti censorship people: They probably believe that any criticism of PCGS is just their opinion, nothing more nothing less. They probably
believe that they are fairly asute with regard to the criticism that they level at PCGS, and that if PCGS would simply listen or ignore them,
that nothing bad would happen. They probably don't believe that anything "bad" has happened to PCGS as a result of any criticism (kind
or unkind) that has been leveled at them. This is the United States and many people believe they can say anything to anyone about
anything at any time. We are very freedom minded. They also may feel that they are left in some sort of limbo with regard to what
can be said against PCGS, wondering what level of criticism will be tolerated. PCGS is rather central to coins in many ways.
So, in a nutshell, while no one likes to be heckled on they're own property, no one likes to be told what to do.
My take on all of this: First of all, being a lawyer means you can't think like a normal person anymore. It's just part of the training.
Secondarily, i am a businessman and a coin dealer but one with the heart of a collector. So, that is where i'm coming from.
Collector's Universe provides us with this forum. It's not the only one around but it's the best one that i know of, at least
as of late. They're not going to become the gestapo with regard to booting people off; that's not good public relations and any
censorship does have a chilling effect and they don't want too much of that.
I think that prior to just recently, not enough censorship was extant. That was good and bad. Good because it made this place
interesting but bad when you were the guy who was getting kicked in the head with steel toed boots.
I'm sad to see anyone leave but i do believe it is a choice. If someone wants to come back in under an assumed name, i'm not
sure PCGS could stop them but of course no one wants to give up their persona. Also, while saying "sorry, i'll change my ways"
is a very, very hard thing to do, i'm confident if someone got booted off, they could come back in providing they just laid off the
PCGS slams....an apology probably wouldn't be necessary. And while we're only talking about a narrow band of censorship and
the privilege of posting here, we are dealing with pride and principals. And as we all know, pride and principals can be costly.
I think one very important thing here also should not be forgotton. This place really is a neighborhood meeting place that means
a great deal to all of us who participate here. In many ways it has become our community, our hang out. I would be very hurt and
sad if i couldn't be a part of this community. I would be angry if i got the boot and i might feel betrayed if i felt that i were actually a
supporter of PCGS and only meant to help even if i didn't sugar coat things.
I'm saddened by the losses that appear to be occurring. But, as my wife has often said, everything works out in the long run, if we will
let it.
adrian
David Hall: He paid to create this site. He pays to maintain it and supervise it. He is reasonable in expecting people to appreciate him
by watching what they say on his forum. My strong suspicions are that he doesn't necessarily mind criticism. But some criticism is
rather harsh and seemingly not made in a constructive manner. DH isn't preventing anyone from having freedom of speech, he just
doesn't want to provide a forum for mean-spirited criticism against PCGS. It's like coming to my house for dinner with some other
guests and calling my kids stupid in front of eveyone. You are certainly free to call my kids stupid but i'll be damned if you'll do it
twice while you're in my house. In my opinion, David Hall has been pretty tolerant. Who of us could put up with the kind of
criticism he has put up with? I don't think i'm that tough.
Anti censorship people: They probably believe that any criticism of PCGS is just their opinion, nothing more nothing less. They probably
believe that they are fairly asute with regard to the criticism that they level at PCGS, and that if PCGS would simply listen or ignore them,
that nothing bad would happen. They probably don't believe that anything "bad" has happened to PCGS as a result of any criticism (kind
or unkind) that has been leveled at them. This is the United States and many people believe they can say anything to anyone about
anything at any time. We are very freedom minded. They also may feel that they are left in some sort of limbo with regard to what
can be said against PCGS, wondering what level of criticism will be tolerated. PCGS is rather central to coins in many ways.
So, in a nutshell, while no one likes to be heckled on they're own property, no one likes to be told what to do.
My take on all of this: First of all, being a lawyer means you can't think like a normal person anymore. It's just part of the training.
Secondarily, i am a businessman and a coin dealer but one with the heart of a collector. So, that is where i'm coming from.
Collector's Universe provides us with this forum. It's not the only one around but it's the best one that i know of, at least
as of late. They're not going to become the gestapo with regard to booting people off; that's not good public relations and any
censorship does have a chilling effect and they don't want too much of that.
I think that prior to just recently, not enough censorship was extant. That was good and bad. Good because it made this place
interesting but bad when you were the guy who was getting kicked in the head with steel toed boots.
I'm sad to see anyone leave but i do believe it is a choice. If someone wants to come back in under an assumed name, i'm not
sure PCGS could stop them but of course no one wants to give up their persona. Also, while saying "sorry, i'll change my ways"
is a very, very hard thing to do, i'm confident if someone got booted off, they could come back in providing they just laid off the
PCGS slams....an apology probably wouldn't be necessary. And while we're only talking about a narrow band of censorship and
the privilege of posting here, we are dealing with pride and principals. And as we all know, pride and principals can be costly.
I think one very important thing here also should not be forgotton. This place really is a neighborhood meeting place that means
a great deal to all of us who participate here. In many ways it has become our community, our hang out. I would be very hurt and
sad if i couldn't be a part of this community. I would be angry if i got the boot and i might feel betrayed if i felt that i were actually a
supporter of PCGS and only meant to help even if i didn't sugar coat things.
I'm saddened by the losses that appear to be occurring. But, as my wife has often said, everything works out in the long run, if we will
let it.
adrian
0
Comments
BTW......I am a very gracious dinner guest, am fond of children, and I like Italian food.
dragon
After reading your wonderful Thread I now don't have to "state my case" as you've just done so and much better than I ever could.
Fair play is all we ask. It's all PCGS is asking.
peacockcoins
The Doc
Your wife sounds like a wise person.
Thank you,
Robert
You summed it up very well.
Hope to see you in Baltimore at the ANA.
Tim
i like your dinner guest analogy, it's one that came to my mind early on and i would imagine most feel similarly. if i invite guests to my home and the experience is rude and critical, while i may not ask them to leave, i most certainly would think before inviting them back soon.
al h.
we now return to our originally scheduled programming.
I tried to express very similar sentiment in another thread; I'm sure it didn't read as neutral and thorough as this one though.
Every so often you DO express your human side.
This was a very well thought out thread that says a great deal in just a few words. I could not have said it better myself. Thank you.
Say something wrong at my house and you can call the ACLU, after you pick your ass up off my lawn.
If you belong to me at work I own your opinions and the wrong one will get you fired.
PCGS needed to make an example out of somebody and I guess gmarguli was an easy one because he died quitely, not kicking & screaming like Laura Legend might have.
I wonder if there's more to the story than what we're hearing.
It's strange that a dealer like Legend that only does 10 coins per year with PCGS gets unlimited bashing rights to David Hall & PCGS but a collector like gmarguli that said he has done $100,000 worth of biz gets the axe.
Strange huh?
Legend pulls a lot of weight with a lot of major players & collectors. Even if it's true that they only submit 10 coins per year on their OWN behalf, they submit a lot more on behalf of their customers. They have put together a number of top sets, including PCGS Registry Sets, and I'm sure there were a lot of submissions along the way. Beyond that, they often represent major bidders at B&M auctions, and major clients. For example, Laura was instrumental in assembling the Flannagan Bust dollars ... which were consigned to B&M for auction (a CU company ...). While I must admit it was somewhat entertaining to see DH lose his cool and call her "Little Miss Know-It-All" (I am still smiling about that), there is no way DH would want to get into a war with Laura !! And TDN is among the ranks of the most elite collectors in the country (read: spends millions on coins). Of course, if they behaved like their well-heeled elite dealer/client brethren - say, for example, David Akers and Brent Pogue - life would be much more boring.
Homerun Hall, if you're reading this, we hope everyone got the message to treat their hosts with respect while we're guests in your house !!!! But remember, a great party has a diversity of guests, with lots of color, some of it perhaps off-color !!! In the context of this forum, "people of color" may not be synonymous with "political correctness," but they sure are fun.
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I think some others attempted to say the same thing. It's difficult to state what you know sometimes when friends are involved.
Dan
Excellent post, Adrian. You put this in perspective so that even the meanest of the hard cases out there
will have to take notice and hopefully realize that there is more that one way to express an opinion. Hopefully.
Did someone say lasagna?
But this house belongs to PCGS and David Hall and they can do what they want.
Yeah, he takes a lot of heat. So what? He's well compensated for it (go take a look at CLCTs insider trading report to get a sense of how well). If he can't deal with it then he should step back and let some PR people deal with this stuff and just go run the biz.
Whatever. In the end it really makes no difference to me. I'll go wherever the best numismatic discussions are.
My Type Set
--- I am The Threadkiller ---
Posts discovered below this line should be considered a miraculous occurance and viewers are instructed to contact their local divinity professional.
---------------------------------------------
How well? If you have those reports handy, please enlighten us as to the CEO's total compensation, as well as proceeds from the sale of stock. As a potential investor, I am curious. It also might help to put some of this in perspective (like Derek Jeter's whining about Steinbrenner's comments ... poor thing, he only gets $100 million contracts from the Yankees ... )
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
changes. As well as daily attacks on the company and David Hall personnally. If you were to be
exposed to such a daily barrage, day and night for months on end, I wonder how objective you
would be. Undue criticism ,that continually repeats old complaints ,that are well known are not the
stuff that stature and effective communication are made of." Seek and you shall find, knock(respectfully)
and the door shall be opened, ask (politely), and you shall be answered".This Forum can, should and will
continue as a sounding board for positive change. This Forum will continue to voice dissenting views,
we will continue to share knowledge and experiences. What is expunged is the rudeness, the cruelty
the inflated sense of self worth ,that often has been to the detriment of the Forum Members.
Camelot
When the smoke clears, it's easier to assess the situation. In this case, I am hoping we will find the ground less disturbed than the thunder of the cannons would have us believe.
Clankeye
<< <i>PCGS needed to make an example out of somebody and I guess gmarguli was an easy one because he died quitely, not kicking & screaming like Laura Legend might have.
I wonder if there's more to the story than what we're hearing.
It's strange that a dealer like Legend that only does 10 coins per year with PCGS gets unlimited bashing rights to David Hall & PCGS but a collector like gmarguli that said he has done $100,000 worth of biz gets the axe.
Strange huh? >>
Makes you wonder don't it. Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
I will say this much. I think a public (not private PM) warning to those booted, prior to taking action would have been better. I think the "calming influence" would have been the same and those Members would still be posting here. The PR situation would have definitely been better (see Dog97's post).
In my opinion, a certain "highly esteemed" Member dealer's temper tantrum about not having some coins cross was much more "damning" of the PCGS organization, than was anything Greg said or did. Just my opinion....
This isn't about free speech and calling someone's kids dumb, this is about a publicly owned and traded company, it's founder, CEO and President and some harsh, but albeit, well deserved criticism leveled against it. It's about company policies that affect us all, turnaround times that cost dealers money, perceived or real grading inconsistency, lack of customer service and responsiveness, cross over rates, body bags, ect.
Those who post here are probably the most passionate about their hobby or business. With all of the demands that life offers, we find the time to meet and share ideas, thoughts on coins, and criticism on just about anything -- coin doctors, AGC, NGC, Ebay sellers, and yes, even PCGS. Some criticize fairly, while others may go over the top with their actions, either when attacking coin doctors or PCGS.
As a lawyer, I've seen some members post threads that could be actionable in a court of law. Where PCGS, could also be a defendant, as a publisher of a defamatory statement. I've seen members interfer with the auctions of those unknown to us, creating a "witch hunt" mentality here.
I've seen a CEO and President of a publicly owned company post threads, leveling both barrels of his verbal shotgun against dealers and other boards members. While the post may be entertaining, I found them to be rather crude and in poor taste.
Professionalism and respect begets professionalism and respect. It starts at the top and filters down in an organization. This is certainly an organization, in which we all believe that Mr. Hall is the top.
I have not seen members that could cause PCGS legal liability banned, I have not seen crude members banned. I have not seen Mr. Hall address many of the problematic issues that we all share.
I've seen a reaction to the criticism that in my mind, might have been warranted, but should not have been taken. Just because you can do something, doesn't always mean that you should. Restraint is a personality trait of the truly evolved.
A private warning perhaps should have sufficed, not an annoucement to the entire community. When you chastise an employee, child or member of your organization, you do it privately, behind close doors, as not to embarrass those being chastise, but also yourself. Next time you see a mother yelling at her child in public, ask yourself what do you think of that mother.
David Hall, PCGS and most importantly the share holders of CU, who actually pay for this site, had/have a wonderful source of information, this Forum. Other companies spend millions on focus groups and other information gathering tools to find out what their customer's really think. Here, it is all for free.
The banning of members has now created an even greater anti-PCGS sentiment across the Internet and other Boards, giving those former members even a larger soapbox to criticize from. Potentially creating more problems for a already beseiged company and CEO.
To quote a famous movie, and since I am Italian from NJ, and probably I make a better lasanga then anyone here --
"you keep your friends close, but your enemies even closer."
Can anyone name the movie.
Michael
LINK
Good luck.
Bear- Has PCGS put you on the payroll? I'm sorry, but I find objectivity sorely lacking.
If I may, I have a few questions to pose regarding your response in this thread.
Let me reiterate, I do not know all the details sufficiently to make a 100% determination either way, nor is it my intent to defend either party(ies). Maybe you DO know more about this situation than others.
This isn't about free speech and calling someone's kids dumb, this is about a publicly owned and traded company, it's founder, CEO and President and some harsh, but albeit, well deserved criticism leveled against it. It's about company policies that affect us all, turnaround times that cost dealers money, perceived or real grading inconsistency, lack of customer service and responsiveness, cross over rates, body bags, ect.
I have heard the complaints and do not disbelieve them, but, I also know that one single individual, pres of company or not, CANNOT institute every single corrective action overnight. That individual SHOULD NOT accept those complaints as factual without verifying they are not isolated incidents. It is apparent the issues are not being addressed fast enough for some, but, if the complaints are from even 50 consumers out of the thousands, then thousands of consumers, exactly what priority would YOU as pres give it?
"As a lawyer, I've seen some members post threads that could be actionable in a court of law. Where PCGS, could also be a defendant, as a publisher of a defamatory statement. I've seen members interfer with the auctions of those unknown to us, creating a "witch hunt" mentality here."
I cannot legalspeak, but the question I asked you before went unanswered: Are you sure that the legal ramifications of which you speak are not restricted/limited by the "Hobby Protection Act," or some similar device? I am not speaking to auction interference, but the other acts unique to the law as regards "dealing" in coins.
Regarding "professionalism begets professionalism." Well, that has been a sore point with me for some time now. Apparently quite a few people DON'T feel it is appropriate to deal with Mr. Hall, and many others for that matter, with the professionalism I feel each and everyone of us deserves. I don't know how long you have been an active participant in this forum, but, I sincerely believe that I know professionalism when I see it. Did you follow the Q&A forum when HRH first starting posting. Even when RM started responding to threads he didn't always get his just due. I don't think just because we sit behind monitors that decency and decorum are not required. Do you? Either way, a great many times the criticisms were not always lodged in a "decent" manner, let alone professionalism.
Let me ask you, are you more prone to be responsive, cordial the rowdier I get. Should you respond to me every time I call you out publicly. How about when I give you a daily dose of what I perceive as your incompetence. (Example, I want my court order signed by the judge right now. Said judge has his own schedule and my issue is one of a hundred. My attorney, YOU, indicate you will take care of it as soons as humanly possible. Will my daily telephone calls reminding you I have retained you for XX dollars to get XX order implemented cause my order or instantaneously appear, or do I eventually become a pain in the neck that you want to complete business with and recommend I find another attorney? Maybe not the perfect analogy, but I think you get my drift.
Let me end by saying, I want the very best most attentive service to, and when my "order for service" is unattended too, you damn right I'm a bit edgy, but, just how many other people are getting service too. What other issues need to be addressed. Exactly where does MY issue fall to the president of a company. Put on your Prez of a law firm hat, with what you consider to be a competent staff and consider just how many individual client complaints you will personally attend to.
Bottom line - how do you know something hasn't occurred through the pm function, or over the phone or even personally. How do you know any number of warnings or polite reminders haven't been issued. I DO know Carol has politely asked for compliance with the forum rules on numerous occasions. But then again, you may know more about this than me.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I do want to address two points in your post.
The "Hobby Protection Act" has nothing to do with slander/libel. The actions I was referring to are comments made by board members, dealers & CEOs, personally attacking others and interference with Ebay auctions-- those may be construed to be actionable and thus PCGS might have liability from a publisher's standpoint. The "Hobby Protection Act" deals with the manufacture and sale of numismatic items that are copies or reproductions.
As for how I run my law firm, I would hope that no one has the idea that I routinely ignore clients, complaints or phone calls. Here's the difference, I am a professional, an attorney, bound to a higher code of conduct, a professional responsibility, canons of ethics. One which I subscribe to and try to achieve. If I ran my firm in a way to displease even 50 out of thousands of clients. I would find myself before a Bar Review Panel, fighting for my career and license. I have no right to censor my clients, ban them from my office or even prevent them from picketing outside my firm and I certainly have no right to prevent them from filing a formal complaint with the State Bar.
If I'm not making the grade, I want to know. I want to know how I can improve. If I or my firm fails to return a call, I apologize, take the blame and correct the problem and try to make that client happier in the future. No problem is too small to be ignored. Treat every client with respect whether they have a small case or a million dollar one. Referrals (submissions) are my business's life blood.
Maybe my expectations are too far reaching -- the buck has to stop somewhere, I imagine that with PCGS it should stop with Mr. Hall. I suppose I am wrong.
Michael
Michael, you may want to wordsmith that one.
WH
Whatever happened, it's a shamed that it came to this.
I've met gmarguli and found that while he's definitely got his own opinions and is happy to express them, he's been a most agreeable person. In other words, he's not the type of person that one wishes to avoid at all costs.
If it was not done, I would have hoped that DH would have considered picking up the phone and contacting gmarguli personally to discuss his displeasure with his comments. Perhaps this could have diffused the entire situation.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
GSAGUY
What many relatively new members (as is David Hall, effectively) might fail to appreciate are the number of collectors -- i.e. PCGS customers -- that Greg helped over the years (yes, years) that he was on this board. Often helping fill the void left by sorely lacking PCGS customer service communication. As recently as just a few days ago he helped me out on a PCGS issue when I could get no response anywhere else.
David Hall's Q&A forum is a good step in the right direction, but he still has a long way to go to catch up to the sheer bulk of help that Greg has provided here.
Yet at the same time relatively new members who have done virtually nothing but contribute negativity and trolling remain. Even though in some cases they quite clearly don't support PCGS in any shape.
Greg, on the other hand, was a big PCGS customer, and, I believe, PCGS (was) still his service of choice despite their faults. He didn't want PCGS to go away, he wanted it to get better.
Finally, the incident which apparently triggered the banning was the re-posting of an NGC post where Greg was mentioned -- Greg had nothing to do with posting it himself.
I don't have any problem with PCGS banning people. It's their message board and their right to do as they please. And I think with the growth of the board some of it is needed. I just think they picked a really poor place to start, and a really poor way to go about it.
Can someone provide me with a link to this or send me a pm with a link? (Just curious....)
I looked for that thread a day or two ago and could not find it. It may have been deleted.
WH
i know of your lovely wife's view, but how aboUt your view of a publicly traded companY that censors its own bulletin boards.
The moderators are in jail.