Serendipity, AT, and the coin doctors

Coinosaurus

Toning seems to be "OK", especially if the coin came from an old time collection, and the toning is more a matter of chance than anything else. Someone across the street just mentioned that the Benson coins came from envelopes and the Eliasberg coins came from cabinets. And no one ever questions toning on these coins, though maybe if you submitted a raw one and the services were being tight it might come back AT, but no way if the coin is pedigreed will the services call it AT.

Make no mistake, the coin doctors are getting closer and closer all the time to duplicating the chemical processes which occured on these coins over time. I believe that at some point they will be able to duplicate it well enough to fool everyone. It's kinda like diamonds. The fake ones are so close to real ones that the diamond mining companies are embedding serial numbers on each diamond in order to preserve the cachet of the diamond being "real".

If two coins look the exact same, is one worth more than the other because it has a pedigree that proves no one ever messed with it??

I submit that the coin market values serendipity. It's kinda like when your favorite movie comes on TV, you feel oddly compelled to watch the whole thing, even if you already have the videotape and you can watch it anytime you want. So, it's perfectly "OK" if a coin got toned by chance, but if you "meant to do it", it doesn't count, and all of the sudden you are a big bad coin doctor.

So, if Eliasberg knew that his cabinets would cause toning, should we call all his coins AT?

Personally, I share the vitriol against the coin doctors expressed here recently, but this is just food for thought.

ah

I think toning has gotten way out of hand, It seems it has become
the "in" thing and it's here to stay.

dwood

Coinosaurus spaeks for me. This is my EXACT sentiment, and has been all along. He? is obviously much better at putting it into words than I.

Thank you Coinosaurus!

ms71

Certainly there's something of a "fad" element to it at the moment, whether it will endure is anybody's guess. The flood of AT stuff can't help, and the closer it gets to the real deal, the more coins will be ruined by the doctors. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that at some point toned coins will come to carry a "suspect" label that becomes a curse, and turns away a large part of the market.




Edited for spelling.

Baley

so where,
along the spectrum of degree of Artificiality of Toning, which stretches from the natural bag morgans,
through the kind of "artifical" but not only acceptable but highly desireable "old time" toning from commemerative tab cases, endrolls, albums, cabinets, etc, and which can be skillfully faked,
through to the other end of the spectrum, the blatantly artifical colors that are the result of instant chemical or heat or whatever treatment,
where along that spectrum does one draw the line

my answer is you don't try to draw a line. evaluate each coin on it's own merits, and learn to price it accordingly. if two or more people disagree on the VALUE of a piece, well, then, presto!

we have a market.

nwcs

One thing people don't remember when it comes to the premiums of colors is that there has always been a premium for exceptional toning. I don't think you'd find a gorgeous rainbow morgan in MS-63 selling for MS-63 prices in 1975. People always pay more for that which is outstanding. Same for super-duper white surfaces.

Beautiful tones will always be in demand. Awesome blast coins will always be in demand as well.

dwood

Baley,
I draw it at the first hint of ANY color. A coin that is showing color, is no longer in the condition that it was when it left the Mint, so by technical definition, it is no longer "Mint State."

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a premium for tone, I myself collect toned coins, and pay premiums for them. However, I'm of the "all tone is AT" camp, and especially so of those that seek out known ways of storing coins that will produce toning gradually over time (I guess "market acceptable really has to do with the time it took to produce the unnatural colors). If you KNOW its going to cause an affect, and you place it there to achieve that affect, what difference does it make how long it takes?

I purchase KNOWN AT coins as well, but as I've pointed out here in the past, I'm a collector, and not an investor. I buy the coin because I like it, not because I expect to flip it for a profit somewhere down the road, or think that "its a good enough fake to sell it to an unsuspecting newbie on eBay." From the discussion I've seen on these forums (which I think is an anomaly borne of the fact that the most vocal folks here are the dealers) I'm in the definite minority here.