Would you buy a (PCGS) coin that's had carbon spots scratched off?? (pics)

Lakesammman

Every once in a while I get offered coins where it's clear that carbon spots have been scratched off (what I call "A" or altered coins instead of "AT"). I never know how much to discount for this or if I should even buy it. Believe me, if it were a common coin, I wouldn't even consider it.

What do you think - buy it?? Am I being too fussy?? Or should PCGS have rejected it as "A'd"?

Will post pictures later tonight.

Edited title 3-22-03 - made spot pleural, added pics

Elcontador

I've seen some high grade Liberty Nickels like this. I won't buy them.
You can tell the carbon spot was there and I don't consider these coins attractive.

fcloud

I am surprised that PCGS would holder a coin with that type of mark. I had a Liberty nickel with a very small mark that I didn't even notice, and they body bagged it for cleaning or wizzing.

coppercoins

Depends on how severe the scratching was to remove the carbon and whether it was a small spot or a large one. As a copper person, you know that a carbon spot left alone will eat the coin like cancer. Regardless of the method used to remove the carbon (short of a brillo pad) the coin is better off without it.

Again, depending on the severity of the spot and the method used to remove it, I would "net grade" it down at least a full grade from detail for cleaning and buy it if it was even that attractive. An EF40 details coin would get VF20 money from me if it were the right coin and cleaning methods weren't too harsh. If it's a badly obvious job that looks like it was done with a pocket knife there would have to be a very hefty discount on the coin for me to touch it. EF40 details might get VG money out of me if I were desparate to have it.

I have talked to Dave Camire of NCS about this subject and he says they generally won't mess with carbon spot removal especially on a red coopper coin because it can almost never be done with satisfactory results.

Lakesammman

Here is a closeup. The coin is a PCGS 64 Cameo. The scratch marks have removed about 50% of the spot.

RKKay

If there are very few better, even with the scratches, I'd consider it. It may still be one of the best around.

braddick

Any purposeful alteration should prohibit the coin from being PCGS holdered.

Right?

toothpuller

I would say it depends on the size of the spot and the value of the coin. If its a tiny spot/speck, in an obscure location, that takes a microscope to find I would consider purchasing it if it was an otherwise strong coin for the grade. If its a bigger spot that is more obvious with the naked eye or 3x, then it may in reality knock the coin down a grade.

I would not buy the coin if I knew that I would spend my time worrying about the scratch and might question the purchase later. Another coin will eventually surface.

Lakesammman

I guess my feelings are, I would like to make a statement. If it's been messed with, I won't buy it. Otherwise folks will keep messing, PCGS will keep certifying, folks will keep buying.....if we just quit buying, then "they" will quit messing with coins.

This sort of tampering is easy to detect - at least it's a start at nipping the tampering business in the "budd".

toothpuller

As soon as I saw the scan I knew that coin wasn't one for you.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Tim

Let's cut to the chase.What is the date of the coin that YOU bought and the grade?

Stewart

Dog97

I tried to scratch a spot off a DMPL Morg one time and PCGS bagged it for wheel damage.
But no, I wouldn't buy a damaged coin.

nwcs

Scratched off? Yikes, I wouldn't want that.

michael

pass........................

sincerely michael

Lakesammman

Stewart:

Not yet purchased........

IrishMike

Not with those scratches, unless it was next to nothing, then it would go in my collection of messed with cents. I didn't know PCGS would slab a damaged coin unless it was a flowing hair dollar.

Gilbert

I cannot even tell what I'm looking at, but, if that is in fact the edge, it almost looks as if a "reed" has also been scratched/filed away. And I can't imagine why PCGS should knowingly slab such a coin - it meets any definition of "altered" in my book. Carbon spot you say; is that the only possibility? In any event, I don't know if I could ever be happy with such a coin; it would take a concentrated effort to NOT be drawn to that area every time I thought of the coin. But that's me.

dwood

Lakesamm..
For my own collection, I probably wouldn't touch it. Its obviously another slabbed coin you just can't trust. But it seems that your asking if you should buy it to resell?

I'd say there is a buyer for EVERY coin, and if you can get it at a good price, and have several clients who would appreciate it even with the damage, go for it. I have several coins that were previously cleaned which I bought because they're scarce dates (and because I don't believe they were actually cleaned, but slabbing mistakes as well), and at least I have a good example of that particular mintage. Coins don't have to be perfect to be collectable.

ANACONDA

No, i wouldn't do so knowingly.

I recently saw a Flyine Eagle Cent in a PCGS holder that had a spot removed. The spot was located at about 10 o'clock, one third to one fourth the way towards the center.

It looked like someone had taken a pin and simply pushed it into the spot repeatedly until the spot was covered over by the p r i c k (s).

Lakesammman

Here's a followup picture showing that 2 spots were removed. The single arrow (top) points to the area shown earlier. The second set of arrows outlines a break in the coins lustre, caused by removal of a carbon spot. Scratches (short arrow) occupy about 1/2 this area. PCGS P64 Cameo

dwood

REALLY nice photos! And an EXCELLENT example of breaks in a coins luster!

Thanks Sam!

littlewicher

Ouch. Just looking at those scratches makes my teeth crinch. PCGS should have bodybagged it or gave it a lower grade then 64. Man, those scratches really stand out and are very detracting.

boiler78

The coin should have never been holdered and even if its a 64 L proof you should'nt buy a problem coin. Just MHO.

leothelyon

The coin is ruined. It's amazing how much area around the spot was distroyed. Under 16x mag. and a very steady hand, carbon spots are mostly crusty and can be easily removed and I have removed a few. The last thing a coin needs is to get all scratched up in the process. Only the copper carbonate particles needs to be picked at and removed and not the metal of the coin itself. At least, work in one direction while doing so. While most of the carbon spot may rest on top of the patina or surface of the coin there may only be a tiny small crevice the eruption occured from so you could scrape an area all day and still have a visible black spot. I have read and like to refer to the carbon spots like microscopic volcanoes. lol And no, I won't pick the scabs off anyone's coins, it's a pain in the........to do so.

Leo

Lakesammman

Leo - thanks for the insight. I've often wondered why the scratches can be so small and the area of luster loss so large.....your analysis explains it.

How do you tell an "active" spot from an inactive one?? Can it be done with any accuracy??

ms71

It may well depend on rarity & how good you think your chances are of finding one damage-free. Whoever owns the (unique) 1870-S $3 gold has to put up with a very nasty set of figures scratched into the reverse. What can you live with?

originalisbest

I wonder if the famous missing cornerstone of the old "Granite Lady" will ever be rediscovered - an a gem, untouched 2nd example of the 1870-S $3 gold piece will come to light?

As to the cent, wouldn't want it in my collection. Yet another example of why not every coin, regardless of the slab opinion, is right for every buyer.

ms71

This is a terrific thread. We need lots more at this level. Thanks!

Dog97

PCGS fails to catch stuff like this but are cracking down on coin doctors?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. It's not really funny. It's terrible. Must have been an ACG crossover.

DesertLizard

PCGS let this one get by! They should see what other messedwith coins the submitter sent in as well!

The dealer/seller who is now trying to sell the coin is no friend to you!

Pass pass pass!

Lakesammman

Here's an example of proper spot removal. The large arrows outline residual toning from the spot that has been removed (flicked??). The smaller arrows outline where the spot was. Notice how the flow lines are preserved in the area. There are no unsightly scratches. This would take a very steady hand and nerves of steel - the coin undamaged is 5K - damaged, worth alot less.

leothelyon

How do you tell an "active" spot from an inactive one?? Can it be done with any accuracy??

No, I can't say I have ever witness one. lol

Seriously, the question has been raised and someone has answered it. Recently I read in a website that toning may last the first 70 years of the coin. How long it takes a carbon spot to develope on a coin is anybodies guess although there may be an answer to that as well. And some say they seem to appear overnight. Sorry I couldn't be of more help for now.

Leo

Lakesammman

Leo:

Thanks - you've been a big help!!

leothelyon

There are other ways to remove those spots besides a needle and toothpick. Electrolysis may be one and the use of lasers may be another. I've never seen either done (if they are methods actually used these days by the pros) but just removing most of the spot is a great improvement. In your last pic, that might be a s-shape crevice remains of the c-spot.

Leo