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New ethics question

lincolnSencelincolnSence Posts: 407 ✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I called a reputable dealer who has an auction coming up next week to inquire about a phone bid procedure. Before I was through, I had been told that there were mail bids already in for one amount, one bid in for 5k over that amount, and two individuals claiming they will go to the mats for the coin. Of course, the catalog states this is not to happen. And I now find myself "knowingly" competing with the two guys who will go to the mats if I am so inclined. All this info because the dealer needs to know if I am more serious than the next guy so he can make his secretary available if need be to assist with the phones. What are everybodies thoughts on this one? Should I be shocked or just admit I'm inexperienced with the realities?

Comments

  • dakradakra Posts: 513 ✭
    I would probably be shocked especially giving out the information prior to the auction. If it was me, I would feel as though he might be weeding me out by saying "heck, the coin is up to $12,000 already, do you plan to go higher or are you just wasting my time?"

    Of course, I'm not experienced in this either. Can you PM me a link or towards more information? ...so I can view it for myself.

    Thanks,
    Dave
  • ahah Posts: 161 ✭✭✭
    I would go with shocked regarding the dealers mis-information.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,274 ✭✭✭
    I wonder if he's lying in order to see if your really interested.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • mrfredmrfred Posts: 718
    Bad vibes, bad vibes.

    I say forget it, and look for the coin elsewhere.
    Life got you down? Listen to John Coltrane.
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336 ✭
    It almost sounds as if the "reputable" dealer is trying to stir your emotions into auction fever. I would guess that the other "2 bidders" are really his shills and he is trying to see what your threshold is. If you say $20,000, then I bet that his cousin Festus (the shill) will be placing bids up to, oh let's say.........$19,999.

    Do this little test: don't bid at all. It is likely that the dealer will call you and say that the other bidders fell through, but you can still have the coin if you want it. Or, he may come up with another example of similar or lesser value and leverage the auction results to convince you that it's a good deal.

    In short, his actions smell funny to me. He simply should have taken your bid. End of story.
  • dwooddwood Posts: 821
    If it were me, that dealer would be added to my "Never Do Business With, Under Any Circumstances" list.
    dwood

    "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How's this for an ethical dilemma - not telling us who the unethical dealer/house is so that we may fall into the same problem some day. I would do as NumisEd says and let us know the dealer (like it's hard to guess who has auctions next weekimage)
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • dwooddwood Posts: 821
    uh oh....blood in the water.....I feel a frenzy coming on.....
    dwood

    "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Ethically, I say this is bad and not fair to the other bidders.
    Unethically, be thankful you have inside info about the possible price as it will greatly benefit your collection and the cosigner's & dealers bank account.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • MadMonkMadMonk Posts: 3,743 ✭
    I'd stay away from that one. like a plague. PM me and let me know who this is. I know a couple already that play that game. Really an old tactic.
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    Even though you said you called a reputable dealer, I would have to disagree. It's clearly unfair to the other bidders.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336 ✭
    Kranky, there are NO other bidders. That dealer is playing lincolnsense like a fiddle. He's just trying to see how high he will go with his bids. Imagine if you were an ebay seller and you knew how high someone would go on your auction. Wouldn't you start the coin at just $1 below what the bidder told you he would bid? This guy is going to shill the lot up to just under what lincolnsense told him he would bid.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I really wanted the coin, I would leave the bid that I intended, in case the other bids "fall through." Otherwise, I would not deal with that dealer again...but then again, I really only deal with one dealer anyway.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • dwooddwood Posts: 821
    NumisEd is going to hate me forever, and be shunned from the forum for months, but...

    I agree with him.
    dwood

    "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336 ✭
    dwood, how dare you agree. I just sent Carol a PM.

    Here, this will make us even: FREE SWIMMER!
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Great replies guys!
    Like a cute fuzzy innocent sheep being led to slaughter I took "reputable" to mean just that. image
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • dwooddwood Posts: 821
    Ed...if it makes you feel any better, I don't collect coins.

    Only Lincoln cents, Jefferson nickels and brothel tokens, so nothing even closely resembling a coin. image

    Carol....please forgive me image
    dwood

    "France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    If there are other bidders, it's unfair to them to let someone else know what their max was. (This was my point.)

    If there are no other bidders, the dealer could have taken lincolnSense's bid and said nothing. And he still could have shilled it up to his max bid. The dealer didn't need to say anything about other bidders to make sure lincolnSense spent every dime of his max bid.

    But since lincolnSense was inquiring about phone bidding, couldn't he have just said he still wanted to bid by phone during the auction without revealing at this time if he was willing to go higher? I think that would protect lincolnSense from having to tip his hand now, but still have the option of going higher during the auction.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • lincolnSencelincolnSence Posts: 407 ✭
    Since I wanted to phone bid and the dealer was out of people to man the phones, he was trying to gauge my level of interest to determine whether to add someone else to man another phone. Still, if its a service they say they offer, then my bidding interest should not be questioned. I will add that neither of the two brothers were on the phone, but another person in their organization was the one on the line with me.
  • AbesNeighborAbesNeighbor Posts: 705
    "TO THE MAT" is not a bid!
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭
    If all is as written, I would never do business with that organization.

    That kind of behavior will create other problems as well IMO.

    Joe.

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