Doctored and/or Restored

MacCoin · February 20, 2003 9:41AM

so what the differance form a doctored and restore Coin? Is a restored coin considered a doctored coin? why won't a doctored coin be considered a restored coin? is it just the AT toned coins are doctored

JML · February 20, 2003 10:22AM

A doctored coin is meant to deceive. A restored coin is meant to improve the coin.

dwood · February 20, 2003 10:34AM

To me, they're the same.

bulloncoins · February 20, 2003 10:37AM

Seems the same to me too....., I mean also

CLASSICS · February 20, 2003 10:39AM

doctored... like adding a mint mark that should not be there. restored....dipping to inprove the looks of a coin......original is where its at...

dragon · February 20, 2003 10:43AM

Exactly JML!, to go a bit further, a doctored coin is a coin that was intentionally altered in a deceptive and many times irreversable manner to make it appear finer than it is, or to disguise flaws in a deceptive way. Methods of doctoring include (but are not limited to) whizzing, tooling, adding/removing mintmarks, artificially coloring, wiping, puttying, filing, polishing, etc.

A restored (conserved) coin is generally when a foreign substance, excessive dirt, carbon spot, certain environmental damage, PVC, or otherwise is carefully removed from a coins surface in order to correct/enhance/preserve the coins appearance, or to prevent further degredation of the coins surface. As least that's the way I see it.

dragon

dorkkarl · February 20, 2003 10:48AM

i continue to insist that ANY change to a coin's appearnce from that of when you received it - is doctoring. that includes cleaning, adding tone, removing tone (dipping), puttying, etching, lasering, plugging, restoring, you name it.

yeah yeah yeah, i know there'll be some who say "it depends on if the intent is to decieve".

b-u-1-1-s-h-1-t. that's a bail-out, the truth is that any doctoring is deceptive. try & think of ANYTHING, 1 single thing, that's ever been done to change a coin's appearance that was NOT intended to deceive!!!

a restored coin is a doctored coin, plain & simple, case closed.

ok, sorry to get carried away. short answer = yes, a restored coin is a doctored coin.

K S

btw, adding a m/m, etc, not under the category of doctoring, as that changes a coin's identity.

dwood · February 20, 2003 11:08AM

I'm with Karl on this one.

(Sorry Karl)

Baley · February 20, 2003 1:19PM

it's a matter of degree.
very little change, and for the better= good
too much change, and for the worse = bad

and for everything in between, it just depends on the extent.

for every thread that attempts to generally, and with broad term, define doctoring, or toning, or dipping, or anything else numismatic in terms of black and white, either/or, yes or no, good/bad, is-it-or-isn't-it type of decisions, I am from here on out going to reply,

"it depends. lets see the particular coin you are talking about, and we'll be able to arrive at a consensus opinion as to how likely it is to be "original", to what extent it is "altered", and how relatively "attractive" it seems to be."

Bear · February 20, 2003 1:49PM

The surest way to lose credibility is to take an absolute position on a complex question

To make my point, a professor asked the class what would constitute a poisen? the class

responded ,any chemical or drug that would be injurious to the living tissue. The doctor replied

that curare is a deadly poisen ,yet in small amounts is used in medicine to relax muscles.Snake venom

is a deadly poisen but is used in medicine to make anti snake venom.The professor then asked the class

if water could be considered a poisen. All of the class said no. The professor then said any substance

including distilled water can kill a human being, it was all a matter of quantity ingested. as for the

question of curating verses doctoring, it is a matter of intent, degree of treating the coin. In a very

technical sense, most coins dipped in the last hundred years could be considered doctored as a minute

amount of surface molecules

are removed. If it is only done once or twice, the effects are not noticable,

but if done 5 or more times you have a lifeless coin without luster or pizzaz. The new solutions being

used by reputable curating companies should not change the surface skin other then to remove

tarnish or impurities by breaking the bonding with the metals surface. There is no simple yes or no

answer to this question. It is all a measure of how much was done and why it was done.

dorkkarl · February 20, 2003 7:03PM

bear, here is why your poisonous water story does not (for me) prove to be a valid analogy.

the professor has defined poison as "any substance in sufficient quantity to prove fatal". quanitity is inherent to his definition & can be definitively measured. ie. the precise number of ounces of water, or the precise number of grams of curare, or cc's of snake venom required to reach a fatal dose. "quantity" is inseperable from his use of the word "poison". there is NO subjectivivity here, it is black-&-white. either the quantity is sufficient to kill, or it is not. a binary result that cannot be argued.

"quantity" is not inherent, either to the act of dipping a coin, nor the act of doctoring it. ie. i can dip or doctor a coin as many times as i wish, & the coin still has value on the market. the results are not definitive, as there is no definite "yes or no" decision to be made as to whether the coin has value. the question is how much value, & that is subjective.

your analogy would work for me if at some point, the "quantity" factor in dipping a coin resulted in a binary result, ie. either the coin becomes value A or becomes value B. but it does not. marketability is the measure here, & as you know, marketability is, by definition, subjective.

K S

edited to clarirfy

jmp81 · February 20, 2003 8:26PM

Dorkkarl, your rebuttals are always sobbering. Do you ever buy preserved coins for your personal collection? I ask this to determine if your argument is for the purpose of argument or do you really find the preserve coin a bad thing.

dorkkarl · February 20, 2003 8:37PM

<< <i>Dorkkarl, your rebuttals are always sobbering. >>

hey jmp81, did you mean "sobering" or "slobbering"?

<< <i>Do you ever buy preserved coins for your personal collection? >>

absolutely, yes!!! (i think you mean "conseved"). such a huge population of coins have been altered that in so many cases, the only 1's i can afford are non-original.

i am not arguing for the sake of argument!!! i'm completely commited to the principal that it is hypocritical for legend, albanese coin, david hall, whomever, to claim that adding tone to a coin is "doctoring", while dipping is "acceptable" & not doctoring. not trying to criticize them at a personal level, but it is a double standard, & 1 which, conveniently, helps them sell coins.

<< <i>do you really find the preserve coin a bad thing. >>

if you mean "conservation", i have nothing against action that preserves a coin's integrity. removal of pvc, for example, is mandatory.

BTW, a lot of you are mistaking my argument, thinking i am trying to say whether dipping/doctoring is good or bad. i am making no such judgement - it's in the eyes of the beholder. my only argument here is that a double-standard is at play, & that is a great disservice to the hobby, as the double-standard is wielded by influential coin businesses. for example, pcgs claims the right to determine for you what is good & what is bad. that in itself may be just fine, but there ought not to be a double standard.

K S

Steve27 · February 20, 2003 8:42PM

Bear, I have a jelly doughnut for you.

MacCoin · February 20, 2003 9:37PM

<< <i>BTW, a lot of you are mistaking my argument, thinking i am trying to say whether dipping/doctoring is good or bad. i am making no such judgement - it's in the eyes of the beholder. my only argument here is that a double-standard is at play, & that is a great disservice to the hobby, as the double-standard is wielded by influential coin businesses. for example, pcgs claims the right to determine for you what is good & what is bad. that in itself may be just fine, but there ought not to be a double standard. >>

I don't know if dipping or doctoring is the same good or bad but if I dip a coin and submit it through a dealer and it come back in a slab. well I won't feel to bad about owning that. than again I do own a few raw dipped coins and like them.

Bear · February 20, 2003 10:52PM

Dorkkarl - How about drinking and smoking vrs taking illegal drugs. some vices are accepted

by society as the norm and others are illegal. Dipping appears to be accepted within in certain

parameters but doctoring is not accepted. Further doctoring places stress upon the pricing structure

within the coin industry.If you read my origonal argument, curaters today , probably use agent

that do not effect the surface skin of a coin as in removing metel ,f you do not alter

or remove any portion of a coins surface nor place it in an oven like cookie dough or use substances

that over time will cause deterioration of the color or surface it is not doctoring by any definition.

dorkkarl · February 21, 2003 12:40AM

bear, who promotes drinking & smoking? why, the brewers & cigarette manufacturers of course! & who promotes dipped coins? why, the dealers that have lots of 'em for sale!

i completely agree that there is a difference between doctoring & curating. removing barnacles or spilled coffee from the surface of a coin is curating it. but removing the grey layer of metal from a barber half to expose the silver layer - for me, that is not curating.

thanks for your input

K S

Baley · February 21, 2003 1:33AM

ok, back from my smoke break, have a scotch in hand, coins spread out in front of me..

now, to me, coins are like women, they're a package deal.

you get it (her) as it is now, with whatever history is behind it (her)
some of which you may or may not know because she was from before your time.
so you take the package at face value, based upon your observations and your experience with others(and this isn't the first coin you've examined... heh) you can make some educated guesses about where she came from, where all she's been and what all's happened to her. sometimes you're fooled, though, but mostly, if you keep at it and keep looking, you find what you've come to like, and then you buy it and it's a keeper, and the other's that you've traded away just weren't as nice as This Particular Specimen.

so for every really nice one that's been cherished and protected and had nothing bad happen to them since their first day, there's an old beat up wreck that never got a break, got kicked around the streets and worn down so you'd hardly know her. there's also fairly nice ones that get a little help from a doctor to look better, and some where the doctor didn't know what they were doing and botched the job and now they look hideous. some just got a little shining up or colorful makeup, some just get the Joan Rivers (or worse, the Micheal Jackson) treatment and are freaks to be shunned, others are greatly improved by the surgery and if they have other rare traits to be desired, may be perfectly presentable.

and of course there is the whole range of in between. the "spectrum" if I may pun.

anyway my drink is done and another cigar sounds good, so...

dorkkarl · February 21, 2003 2:54AM

cigar nuttin' - you're toning coins aren't ya!!!

K S

Baley · February 21, 2003 3:10AM

heh, ya got me... here's my process.

take roll of morgans, one at a time, swirl in the scotch, and then laycoin in ashtray, drink the scotch, and puff cigar smoke at the coin. repeat until the pretty colors appear or you pass out..

ok the magical secret is revealed at last!

dwood · February 21, 2003 3:12AM

Ahhh.....the "Macanudo MONSTER" coin?!?

Doctored and/or Restored

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