A fair way to sell overgraded coins - 2 examples
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
Recently, a client of ours consigned some certified coins graded by companies other than PCGS or NGC. We listed them on Ebay under a different account than we use for our PCGS and NGC offerings and described them as we saw them.
Here are two examples of how we feel overgraded coins (certified by certain grading services) can be offered for sale in a fair way (please read our actual descriptions of the coins):
Overgraded 1916-D Mercury dime
Overgraded Proof 1856 Flying Eagle cent
Here are two examples of how we feel overgraded coins (certified by certain grading services) can be offered for sale in a fair way (please read our actual descriptions of the coins):
Overgraded 1916-D Mercury dime
Overgraded Proof 1856 Flying Eagle cent
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Comments
Cameron Kiefer
K S
I can't see anyone faulting you for that (wait, this is the coin forum). You clearly state your opinion on grade and you have good scans.
Good job.
Clankeye
By the way, Oceanside Coin Club show March 22nd...maybe you can grace us with your gracious presence
Thanks, but I will be out of town at another coin show then.
I saw that '56 Flyer last night and was eyeing it pretty close. Didn't realize it was your guys' stuff. It does look cleaned but still pretty nice coin.
It's refreshing to see honesty for a change on ebay instead of listing that as PQ PQPQPQPQPQPQP PF64? +++++++++++++++++++ MONSTER,,,,etc...
smprfi - I'm not sure what you mean by your question "Are you not mentioning something?" Also, for coins of that value, the postage seems fair to me - I've paid that amount of postage for coins of much lower value - sorry if you disagree.
I am sure insurance is included in the shipping charges. $1.30 per $100 shipped.
The shipping seems to be a little confusing. It says first class in the terms section, but in the auctions underneath the scans it says Fedex in one and Registered in the other. If those are the actual shipping methods, those costs aren't out of line for coins of this value.
Russ, NCNE
PCI ,like ACG have THEIR OWN set of standards.Standards that do not mirror that of the universally accepted ANA standards.
These are the dogs of the `pro grading services`.One cant just learn grading of coins but needs to learn how to grade these coin authenticating companies as well.
The dime auction description is ok because grading IS subjective but I have problems with the cleaned FE because even though you say it's cleaned the holder makes no note of it-could lead to possible problems for a future buyer who isn't familiar with PCI standards and cleaning etc.
In answer to your questions:
We typically sell only NGC and PCGS coins. It's not a matter of trying to hide our affiliation, but one of not wanting to offer non-NGC or PCGS coins through our regular account, where we have an established track record for selling only PCGS and NGC coins.
They are not our coins to submit - they belong to a client, who prefers to try to sell them as they are. If they were submitted to NGC or PCGS, I believe that the 1916-D dime would grade AU58 and that the 1856 Flying Eagle would either no-grade due to cleaning, or grade PR62, taking the cleaning into account - just my opinion.
This is how I do it.
Jimmy
Interesting approach. I toss and turn a lot of nights trying to figure out how to handle overgraded coins or coins in third tier holders. Given the locations of many of these services, the coins are quite prevalent here in the southeast and avoiding them entirely is difficult. Many of the coins I am offered by collectors are in such holders.
In some respects, handling them at all gives credence to the grade and holder and helps make a market (although at a lower price) in the brand. Purist on this board, not only refuse to buy such coins (even accurately graded ones) in order to send an economic message but also claim to refuse to do business with dealers that deal in coins slabbed by [insert grading service]. On the one hand, I see their point and agree with their objectives but at the same time seems to be a bit of an overreaction (and is easier to do as a collector than as a dealer). Thus, the tossing and turning.
On the other hand, if the grade is off and the coin trades between informed buyers and sellers at a reasonable price for the condition, shouldn't everything be okay? Probably so, except that it leaves open the possibility that the coin is subsequently passed along to a less knowledge buyer who purchases the coin based on the grade. So, I ask myself, to what extent do I have an obligation to have such coins reholdered with an accurate grade? Obviously, I can't single handedly afford to buy all the overgraded coins and have them crossed to a more reasonable grade. I can't even do enough to make a dent or even a noticeable difference. Should I do any? Most dealers don't do it all. They simply stick a price on the coin and put it in their case leaving it to the buyer to decide if the deal is fair for the grade. I'm sure others try to cross to more accurate grades. How can I be more vigilant and yet stay in business?
At first, I just refused to buy overgraded and/or third tier holders no matter the price. I just politely said I wasn't interested. That is starting to become impractical. One of the primary reasons is that I feel an obligation to make a reasonable offer to customers on their coins (whether they got them from me or not). I don't feel like I am being a good dealer if I won't at least offer to buy (or take in trade) their existing stuff. So, what I've been doing is buying (or accepting in trade) a few such coins that are nice coins if the price is fair and then crossing them at the lower grade. This does add cost and ties up my money with the coin being out of inventory for 3-4 weeks. It works now because of the low volume but if it grows I will likely need to change my approach.
I appreciate your letting us know how your company deals with this issue and would be interested to hear from other dealers that have faced the situation and also from collectors who can voice their thoughts while also considering the dealer's perspective (need to make a living, there are a lot of coins in such slabs some of which are nice, obligation to customers to buy or take in trade as they try to upgrade their collection, etc.).
An alternative eBay account certainly could work fine for that medium. What about website and show sales?
My apologies in advance if my post highjacks your thread. That is not the intent at all.
WH
I like it, but what about someone reselling it? You are educating a novice, but someone who does more with coins/like to rip people off may buy these, then sell them at their holdered grade... would your client be against crossing them? Put the dime with PCGS, and the eagle with ANACS if you think it was cleaned.
Jeremy
You did not hijack my thread, you improved it. Thank you for an excellent and thought-provoking post.
I will say, whatever arguments can be made that overgraded/problem coins can be pawned off on the unsuspecting/unknowledgeable, can also apply to properly graded/non-problem coins. It's just more difficult to do with the better coins certified by the better grading services.
What good does it do anyone to keep it in its holder? Selling an overgraded coin in its slab invites the unscrupulous to buy it and relist it for sale without the honest description.
I guess I can see WH's point as to new customers that have those slabs and want to upgrade, but purchase them at the lower grade and crack them out. It seems that by not cracking out the overgraded coins that you are just giving the opportunity for someone else to get burned later down the road. Did this customer get burned purchasing the coins the first time? Is he hoping that they will bring more money inaccurately described on the holder than the actual grades?
*Thinking Positive*
Nathan
peacockcoins
Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
Monty...
I really don't like it. If you feel the coin is overgraded, you should try to get it regraded under the service's guarantee. If the service is gone or disagrees, you should not have bought it. Or, if you chose to buy it, or had to buy it, you should have bought it at a price consistent with where you thought it should be graded and then sent it to PCGS for a new grade. If the seller didn't want to sell there, then you would not have had to buy it.
Basically, my problem is that you are leaving an over-graded coin on the market. The buyer could then turn around and zip some unsuspecting new buyer. If I were a crook, I would try to buy your coin cheap (which I could probably do because of your disclosure), and then sell it to a novice at full price based on the grade on the holder, or maybe a little less and claim he is getting a bargain. So, unwittingly, you become part of the problem.
I would recommend taking down the auctions and getting the coins correctly graded. I believe major dealers like Pinnacle need to take the lead in pulling bad stuff out of the market.
With all due respect.
Greg
I`d be suprised if one, if not both,of the PCI slabs he`s selling don`t end up in the "wrong hands"! It`s not Mark`s responsibility, or is it?
When does it become the buyer`s responsibility to know what he/she`s buying,or is that an obsolete notion?
They have been consigned by a good client of ours who wants them liquidated. We don't have his permission to crack them out and get them graded lower or body-bagged by NGC or PCGS.
In my opinion, we have a fiduciary responsibility to him, to try to sell them for "fair" money and an ethical duty to those we offer them to, to disclose their true condition. We have done our best to satisfy both interests. Though, as someone suggested, if we had it to do over again, we would probably mention that not all grading services' grades are created equal, etc.
If these coins don't sell on Ebay, they will be sold to dealers, not collectors.
Greg, while I understand and appreciate some of your suggestions, I don't think they're practical, under the circumstances. Yes, we are leaving over-graded coins on the market. But, we do what we think is right, without being able to control what others do. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, recently, if buyers are not knowledgeable and don't do their homework, they can and do get screwed buying properly graded PCGS and NGC coins, too. We have no control over that, either.
banknote1 - Scott is an employee of Pinnacle.
Pat - we set what we felt to be realistic reserves, considering the holders AND the coins.
Roy - two thumbs up is plenty - thanks.
I'm no dealer, but I can't sell myself on the idea that it is a dealer's responsibility to get these coins regraded. To me, all that's required is: "Grades MS62 by PCI's standards, grades AU58 by our standards and is priced accordingly". If I were a dealer and it became my responsibility to have these coins regraded, I would simply cease to handle them in any fashion.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Ray
Even though the seller is a customer, you do not have a fiduciary duty to accept them for consignment. If you feel the coins are not fairly represented by the holder designation, then you should ask to seller to seek a regrade and refund from the service. If he chooses not to do so then you may have to make the hard decision not to accept the coins for consignment. Ultimately, I believe an expert, reputable dealer like Pinnacle bears more responsibility for what they sell, or accept for consignment. You know, if GM manufactures a defective car that I buy, and I resell it, GM bears the responsibility if it later explodes. A disclosure to me when I buy it really isn't enough. I know the analogy only goes so far, but I hope the point is taken.
Greg
<<<
Nice honest, but true auctions.
coinguy1, you might consider adding a blurb that explains to newbies how grading is subjective
I can't see anyone faulting you for that
What good does it do anyone to keep it in its holder?
I say reholder
Honesty...what a concept.
$12.50 and $16.25 for shipping.Pretty steep for USPS first class shipping.Are you not mentioning something?
The postage isn't out of line.
The shipping seems to be a little confusing.
The shipping baffles my mind too
I think you're handling this situation far better than almost any other seller would. But, there is still room for further improvement.
I really don't like it.
>>>
I was surprised that you sell your good stuff through the main account and the junk through the scott account. I bought an NGC Proof Barber from that account one time.
Scott has been a good contact - even brought a coin to me at work since he lives close by! He's been helpful.
With all the SHOULD BE MSxx titles, maybe you could try a SHOULDN'T BE MSxx in your listing.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
If it's an AU coin the reserve should be AU+ money regardless of what PCI states.
It's tough for me to see it both ways.
You disagree with PCI's grade- state so in the auction, but then have a hidden higher reserve that takes into account PCI inacurate opinion.
peacockcoins
and then to also state waht the coins really are regardless of the holders
then a buyer can deside for themselves waht they want to do!
really ALL HOLDERS ARE is opinions
with coins being a luxury item that is a unregulated market you spends your monrey and you takes your chances at least with these two auctions you got good photos a return priviledge and what the coins really are stated simply and to the point
now i am also we are not the worlds policeman if they sell the coins what the buyers do with them are their business
think about it lets say you have a really cherry gem lincoln cent in a pcgs holder and it sells and the buyer gets a one point upgrade from pcgs and now this coin sells for 10 times the original price from its last one point lower graded pcgs holder did i cheat the new buyer of this coin inthe one point higher holder??
i do not think so
at least the auction states for the merc dime that it is a slider and that the flyer has altered surfaces if someone buys it they can do what they want with it maybe greed will set in who knows? but with coins with this high of a price it is a rich mans luxury game something that you can live without if you cant figure out a coins
worth and atrributes all by yourself and you are not buying with discretionary funds only for collecting then you should not be buying coins at all!!!!!!!!!
so with these two coins let the buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!
now i can see if this was medicine someone needed to live well that is another different story
sincerely michael
<< <i>Mark:
Even though the seller is a customer, you do not have a fiduciary duty to accept them for consignment. If you feel the coins are not fairly represented by the holder designation, then you should ask to seller to seek a regrade and refund from the service. If he chooses not to do so then you may have to make the hard decision not to accept the coins for consignment. Ultimately, I believe an expert, reputable dealer like Pinnacle bears more responsibility for what they sell, or accept for consignment. You know, if GM manufactures a defective car that I buy, and I resell it, GM bears the responsibility if it later explodes. A disclosure to me when I buy it really isn't enough. I know the analogy only goes so far, but I hope the point is taken.
Greg >>
Greg,
How would this apply to the major auction houses that sell overgraded coins, both raw and certified?
Do you feel that have a responsibility to the public for hiring a competant grader to be added to their cataloging staff?
Does this also apply to the overgraded product from the leading grading services also?
Its a common acceptance by the industry insiders that the overgraded material gets dumped into the auctions to be sold "as is" which ultimately affects the value of the other coins that are graded the same grade. Hence, the "Blue Sheet" prices which to me a virtually meaningless except to buy nice material below its true market value. The exception to this would be the generic or extremely high population coins which have a sufficient quantity available to make the blue sheet price relevant.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
www.saharacoins.com
&
Vintage Paper Memories
www.vintagepapermemories.com
Ken
Mark -> Scottscoins needs to check their hotmail account more frequent, it is a bummer to have a recent negative on a $60 coin when selling coins for thousands.
I see nothing wrong with the way you handled the sale - with the cleaned penny, could you get that in a PCGS slab, or would it be bodybagged for cleaning? Do they make exceptions for extremely rare coins?
It is interesting some of the comments inferring if you sell coins from less than top-notch grading service, then by association, your services/company are also less than top notch. I disagree.
Mark, I also find it interesting that pinnacle has a separate/non-related account for coins that are not PCGS or NGC.
No moral judgement by me on this one - buy the coin not the holder?
Ken