Baseball, Then they're certainly the exception to the rule, and I would suspect they would agree. I wasn't passing judgement, I was just stating the obvious.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Wondercoin, Congrats on your retirement. Do you like it better than what you used to do?
I certainly meant no offense to anyone individually, and I hope none was taken. But I'll stand by that statement as it has been my experience. Lawyers are people too, so there certainly are exceptions to the rule. I'd give Wonder and coinguy the benefit of the doubt.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I spent a little time pondering your point, and I find my argument suspect. If I may reduce your hypothesis to it's simpler form -
PCGS puts themselves forward as the best graders in the business. They state unequivocally that they won't grade AT coins. They guarantee their holdered coins.
If I tell you it is not possible to detect AT with 100% accuracy using normal grading procedures, I am admitting PCGS's inability to do what they claim. If I tell you they have set the bar too high, PCGS has overstated their own ability. If PCGS can't do what they claim, they should remove that potential liability or I should short the stock. Disproving their ability to accurately detect AT coins only requires one sucessful submission.
It is an indefensible argument, and obviously PCGS should change the rhetoric to something like - we will not knowingly holder an AT coin.
A large part of PCGS's problem is the value the market has given their grading opinion. A $50 holder can be worth $10's of thousands on the right coin. I'm not sure that is not "our" failing.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Like Microsoft, there are other competitors in this market. Like Microsoft's, almost none of them are very good. It is similar, isn't it?
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Well, I thought Microcsoft was accused of tying up the market by making their internet exployer a part of their operating system which prevented other internet companies from marketing their products with Mircosoft's operating system. What PCGS is really saying is 'buy PCGS slabs only and you won't get ripped off. So I can see how all those other investors in all them other grading companies are going to just shrugg their shoulders and say,'well gee wiz, we better switch and buy PCGS. I don't believe that will happen. That's not the American way. I would think it's more like, 'well let's see if they can put their money where their mouth is.' And litigation just may find it's way into a company to knock it down a notch or two.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i> PCGS puts themselves forward as the best graders in the business. They state unequivocally that they won't grade AT coins. >>
Perhaps they just don't know that they grade AT coins, but they have, and will continue to miss on these. But ultimately, why would this matter if the coin is nice? At some point the buyer has to spend a few moments actually looking at his/her purchases and deciding whether they like the coin. Many masterpieces in the art world have been "doctored" to help current and future generations enjoy the artwork. There is always the possibility that future generations of collectors will be glad the coin they bought was dipped 50-150 years earlier to prevent further toning or enjoy that a layer of color was placed on the surfaces to enhance the appearance of the coin.
John Butler Sahara Coins www.saharacoins.com & Vintage Paper Memories www.vintagepapermemories.com
Wow! You guys really have to stop with the lawyer bashing. Its really obnoxious to scorn an entire profession based upon your own few run-ins and what you hear on TV and read in the papers. Let me apologize to all of you on the behalf of all attorneys who have swindled, cheated, lied and basically screwed you over. We're sorry. Feel better now?
Most lawyers are decent human beings that have spouses, raise children, donate to charity and try to help out once and awhile. In any profession, there will always be a bell curve of morality, whether its lawyers, coin dealers, doctors or police officers.
Out of everyone DHeath found my point and really nailed it. Leo is a close second. Accountability. Where's the accountability? Does anyone care about that anymore? This is part of the problem with America, no one feels accountable anymore. Who will hold someone's feet to the fire. It's a dirty and nasty job, but guess who gets to shovel the sh*t of this world -- lawyers.
I've seen company after company take advantage of their employees, don't pay overtime correctly, fire them when they complain. I've seen HUGE corporations swindle millions out of their money, one penny @ a time. And guess who's there to get it back - the lawyers. You hate class action lawsuits - fine - go sue RCA in small claims court when the TV you bought breaks 2 days after the warranty expires. And they knew it was going to happen and shorten their normal warranty on that particular set by 6 months, so you then get to pay them repair fees. Go sue Blockbuster when you return a movie late by 1 hour and they charge you 5 days rental fees, then turn around and re-rent it to someone else 10 minutes after you leave, doubling their money and ripping you off. Doesn't sound like much to you, but do you realize companies come up with these schemes and then they wait for the class actions to come. They might make tens of millions illegally. It's a cat and mouse game.
Don't feel bad for the companies of this world, they aren't there to be nice to you. They are there to make money for their investors, in any way possible.
Maybe I'm just old fashion, I expect people & companies to live up to their contracts. If you say you're going to do something do it. Its as simple as that. And if you can't, don't say you can and try to convince everyone that you are, when you're really not.
Sure, lets blame the coin doctors, but not anyone else for this problem? If a company places themselves in the stream of commerce and says "hey, buy our product over Brand X, because our brand can do A,B & C and theirs can't" well, they, themselves have put a big bullseye (no toning pun intended) on their chest. Not me.
What about turn around times for grading - not to get off the point, but that's another example. Send your coins in and we'll get them back to you in 21 days. So you send off your $99 or $179 for a membership and guess what, sorry its 45 days, sorry it's now 50 days. And we're suppose to be okay with that? They don't wait 45 or 50 days to charge your credit card or cash your check do they? While your coin sits in some vault, they're making money with your money, always remember the "float" it's the same way banks make their money.
Instead of reading this post as though some money grubby ambulance chasing attorney has been writing it, read it as though a fed-up client and consumer of PCGS has been writing it.
While some of you may not remember, when I joined this Forum, there was a "problem" with PCGS's policy in regards to providing free grading once a set has become 90% complete. The language was a little misleading and Registry members where being informed that unless they register their set all at once and they were 95% complete, you were not entitled to the free grading offer. While I'm not taking credit for it, but you can read between the lines, I sent several emails to various PCGS/CU corporate types, indicating my "legal" take on the situation. Well they changed the policy almost immediately, but of course, according to PCGS it had nothing to do with me or my emails.
Flame me if you will, drink your PCGS flavored Kool-Aid if you must, tell yourself that your toned PCGS coins are 100% natural, anything that it takes to make yourself feel better about my posts. But please, open your thoughts, minds, eyes and ears and think.
Why don't you just sue the Mint. Their the ones issuing "doctorable" coins anyway. You'd think after hundreds of years of seeing the problem, they would have done something to stop it. Undeniably negligence.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Are you sure that some of your specific issues (the legal implications you perceive) are applicable when it comes to "collectible coins?" I'm under the impression that the "hobby protection act," or some similar precedent(s) or ruling kinda' put coins (in this case) in a area of law unto itself. In other words, many legal issues one might expect to apply, just may not.
Have you taken this into consideration when making some of the statements/recommendations/inferences you make?
"Wondercoin, Congrats on your retirement. Do you like it better than what you used to do?"
It simply become too difficult to draft those legal briefs with an original bag of coins on the desk in neat piles. Everytime I reached for the pen, I grabbed the loupe
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wondercoin,It could have been so much worse....what if every time you reached for the loupe, you grabbed a pen?
OUCH!!!!
Congrats on retirement. Wish I could work for them
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
No my lawyer bashing must not stop - I thought you lawyers realized this is a free country!
You say yourself "Let me apologize to all of you on the behalf of all attorneys who have swindled, cheated, lied and basically screwed you over. We're sorry. Feel better now?". Oh, so you have done that as well have you?
Personally, I think your anti-corporate stance is a bunch of sickening B.S. Sure, you can find bad in any profession, but the legal profession leaves the others in the dust in quantity of bad and magnitude of bad.
You say my R.C.A. T.V. breaks just after the warranty. First off all, I know enough about electronics to know that it would be pretty damn tough to calculate to the day an appliance would break whether the buyer uses the T.V. alot or a little bit. Your claim that they knew this would happen is just your guess - you have no proof whatsoever, do you?.
Second of all, if a company's product goes bad - guess what - this is America and we can chose (despite what you lawyers want). If I liked the T.V. it should be my right to go and buy another one or pay for the repair, despite the inflated prices I now have to pay since the T.V. company has a bunch of legal fees. If I feel I was wronged I have every right to look elsewhere.
As for the blockbuster type of thing, what do they do when they get sued for stuff like this? Right, they pass higher prices on to the consumer. So myself being a good guy who would not return movies late (Why return a movie 10 minutes late when you usually get 3-4 days now), now has to pay twice as much to rent a movie - because of greedy corporations? - No, because of greedy lawyers. No one is forced to do business with these companies. I have yet to see Microsoft or even Phillip Morris point guns at people and demand they buy their product. Now, if they were to do this, it would be a different story.
I always hear this stuff about "good people with families, raising kids", etc. Just because they have families and are raising kids doesn't mean they are good people - they know damn well what harm they are doing to the country and they should take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves why. You didn't answer to my McDonald's examples, did you? They basically steal a bunch of money from good corporations (and in reality from the shareholders and workers at those companies) and then you claim they donate money. Gee, what a nice guy. Sues for a million bucks over some bogus thing like a trace of meat in his french fries and then gives $100 to the homeless shelter that is now feeding people who were laid off by that corporation after they paid out.
Did you also ever stop to realize all the people who have jobs in these companies, and all of the shareholders of these companies? Did you ever stop to realize that these companies could pay their employees more, and still make their shareholders happy if they didn't have these usually B.S. lawsuits hanging over them?
You talk about the PCGS thing where you could get a coin with 90% complete and say they did this bad thing of requiring 95% and registered all at once. So what! This was a free offer on PCGS's part! You are going to critisize them for this offer? Gee, maybe now they will think twice before giving more free gradings. Way to go. Will you provide free legal services? Does your corporation always charge small fees? I ask you again Michael - Does your law firm ALWAYS WIN EVERY CASE? If not, then how in the hell can you expect PCGS to ALWAYS GET EVERY COIN RIGHT??
As far as accountability goes since you claim to be so damn concerned about it - I consider it to be in the eyes of the customer. If I send coins to PCGS and they promise 45 days and it is 50, I can stop doing business with them. It is as simple as that. Just like those clients who hired you and you lost the case - they could come back to you next time, or go elsewhere.
As you can see, I don't have much care for most lawyers, especially those who go after corporations over minor issues or those who go after individuals who really haven't done any harm. Maybe you are one of the few good lawyers out there - but I wouldn't count on it based on your attacks on a company that has always been on the side of the consumer (PCGS). BTW, I don't collect toned coins, but that really isn't the issue here.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
I am with Frattlaw on this one. He makes a lot of sense. Bottom line is that everyone should just "keep it real"....no gimmicks, no hype or games....just be accountable for your actions, be fair and mind your ethics.
Sorry, my hands are about to braek and fme can no longer typppee. Wai.m.letme sue keyboardmm.maker... manyebbrbe PCgss for doingnnggngn thsiis too meme... Aaah... Da paiiin....Why didddn'ttt I reaeasdffd theher wraeernringgs onnnn keeeyeboaradd.d..
Just in case anyone is worried about me, that is a joke!
I like your style Base. I have listened to many lawyers preach their "moral consious" about how the "Big" guy (i.e. McDonalds) is "screwing" over the little guy (i.e. person who got fat, maybe from McD's - maybe from his Aunt's cooking - who knows!). Then, after screwing over the workers and shareholders of the company, they drive off in their Mercedes S600 and tell their wife how they are going to do good and donate $20 to some cause. Geez.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
Michael, you say "where's accountability?" I agree! where is accountability within the legal profession? Wheres accountability/redress for the lawyer who twisted enought things around that a tenant could stay in an apartment rent free for ten months in spite of his destruction of the premises (photographes and shown in court)? All this lawyer got was elected to a political office in good old Santa Monica because she "helps consumers/tenants". Wheres accountabilty for the lawyer who first contests a UD two months after the last rent check was received; then advises the tenant to file for bankruptcy to stay to execution of the eviction, anbd then, several momnths later after the stay was reversed by the bankruptcy court, advices the tenant to file for bankruptcy again to get a second stay because it will take the court several months to figure it out and disallow the second filing. Where's accountability there? I could go on and on, but those are two (albeit rather exterme) actual cases that have occurred ---the plaintiff/landlord in each of them was my wife. Until lawyers are held accountable (by being required to make a successfuly plaintiff whole), we will continue to be deluged with dishonest, unethical lawyers in the name of "defending the consumer". I am the first to admit that there are many times consumers need to be defended. good friends of mine (husband/wife attorney pair) are one of the more visible and successful firms in the country (they're one of the twelve or so involved as leads in the WTC litigation). I truly believe they honestly and ethically and morally serve people who need to be served.
But for everyone who is helped, some one is hurt. the legal system has fixed it so through legal aid lawyers acting without fee, people have nothing to loseand they thereby extract a few more months of free living from a landlord. god help the landlord if she cannot afford the utility payment and the gas gets turned off. I could go on and on with examples from my wifes 25 years in the rental business but you get the picture. Helping the consumer is ONYLY good in a situation where the vendor has knowinbgly wronged the consumer. and today's legal profession goes after money---I'm not rich, but we do have more resources than moost of the tenants in our buildings. So we are a good target for someone who cannot afford to pay his rent. have you ever been told that "I can't pay the rent becasue my vacation to Europe last month caost more than I thought it would"? My wife has been told that by a tenant who was already behind in their rent. I sure hope (and I assume) that isn't the kind of "consumer/little guy" that you think the legal system should help while the sellers/landlords/etc. foot the bill.
enough of my ranting, but I think you see where (and, I hope, why) I'm coming from. Defending the little guy; defending the consumer is NOT always the right and moral and just thing to do!
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this, While many might not agree with Frattlaw...... I see no reason to tear into him so much. Many people here complain about the grading services every day, all day. He offered to maybe do something about it. It's fine to disagree but to tear into every aspect why you hate lawyers is not really what this is about IMO. I'll give him credit for trying to make a difference instead of complaining.
BTW, I really don't care for Lawyers myself, been through a divorce enough said.
Ok, should I duck now?
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I won't tear into you, but you need to understand this. Attacking PCGS because a few AT coins may possibly have slipped past them is a long, long ways away from actually helping people. Instead of going after companies that clearly don't have peoples interest at heart such as some questionable 3rd party companies, this would only:
1. Raise fees, quite possibly by double or so. 2. Increase submission times - if PCGS knows they could get sued, don't you think they would want to take a long time to decide on a coin. 3. Possibly knock a company like PCGS or NGC out of business - gee that does alot of good!
My point is that if you want to pay a large fee and wait along time for your coins, why doesn't a service such as that come about - why must they be forced on us by some lawyers who smell blood? Don't think that any lawyer is actually trying to "make a difference...". They see money - they attack any minor issue - they go on to the next opprotunity, possibly leaving the first industry in shambles. If a lawyer really, truely wants to help, why not form an organization that would spot AT and help inform the public, etc., instead of attacking a good institution that people such as myself use to help us avoid fraud. As I said, personally, I don't even collect toned coins, so it would be meaningless to me, yet I would still have to face the three items above if this were carried out.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
My feelings stem from the perception that this is yet another frivolous lawsuit with no clear winner, other than the lawyers.
In the first place, I don't see that PCGS has been allowed to "follow through" with their "implied warranty," or that as of yet, they have violated it. Second, I can't see the rationale in reimbursing anyone for anything higher than the market-determined value of the coin at the time of purchase (with no premium for toning). Third, I think it sets a dangerous precedent, and could very well lead to additional and unnecessary proceedures such as Fratt's earlier proposal of "closing" on a coin as you would a piece of real estate (do I really need a lawyer in order to purchase a 43-S PCGS slabbed Lincoln?).
Coins are an investment just as stocks are. If you buy the right one, at the right time, you get a return. If you buy the wrong one, at the wrong time, you lose money. If this succeeds, and an implied warranty is determined to have been breached, I'd like to sue Coca Cola because I'm ready to sell my stock NOW and their value isn't as high as I think it should be.
dwood
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>If a lawyer really, truely wants to help, why not form an organization that would spot AT and help inform the public, >>
JJacks, I understand your point completely. And believe it or not I'm not siding one way or the other.
Having said that, Frattlaw even tried and mentioned the above quote of trying to form a website.
He was given a written "Warning, leave it up to the experts" by one of the "Major Players." Yes some of the major stuff should be left up to the experts, but I think sometimes the experts think just because us small collectors don't buy and sell millions of dollars in coins, and don't walk the boarse at major shows, that we know nothing. And have no business commenting on anything.
Sometimes I think they just want us to turn on our PC, sit down, shut up, and go to their website and buy their coins that we know nothing about.
I'm done now and I feel better now.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I do want to add... I noticed most people don't think that toning should be a factor in figuring market price of a coin. But the prices we have to pay are the market price. By mostly demand, and the dealers price them to that demand.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
17 years ago, the founders of PCGS made the decision that the promotional value of claiming that they wouldn't holder certain problem coins was worth far more than actually being able to fulfill that promise. Their "out" was that they would either negotiate a settlement to satisfy the few complaints that would show up, or deny that the problem behind the complaint existed. [What artificial toning? We believe the coin is naturally toned!!] As long as they could successfully promote themselves as the experts, they've had little actual liability for 17 years. And the fact has been that over that time they've refused to slab a lot of coins that they claimed were questionable, thereby reinforcing their credentials as experts, and making it appear as if they've been acting responsibly.
Well, I hope y'all haven't thrashed him into submission because I was looking forward to an answer to my question, which can't be construed as bashing or flaming ... I don't think.
I can't see the rationale in reimbursing anyone for anything higher than the market-determined value of the coin at the time of purchase (with no premium for toning).
If the coin was purchased at a large public auction (like Goldbergs) and then resold again at or above the previous price then is that not the true market value of the coin regardless if it has toning or not?? I thought the market value was what a group of people are willing to pay for an item whether it is posted on a web site price guide or not? Who determines what REAL market value is, which web site is considered the true barometer of a coins values. How did they come up with those prices?? Did they watch major auction prices or dealer prices?? If so they must not be accurate as that is the same way values for toned coins come about isn't it? I agree that one coin sale does not make a market but it has been a number of years (and many many dealers/collectors) which has increased the value of toned coins and unfortunately the trend does not seem to be changing so does that not make a market i.e. market value for those coins?
tompkins, your wife needs a better representation. a motion for relief from stay should have been filed and a hearing would have been held within 30 days. bankruptcy would only have applied to amounts owed at the time of filing, therefore, the landlord can sue the tenant for eviction and rent owed for any time period after the filing unless the bankruptcy trustee assumes the lease. the landlord can proceed during bankruptcy without asking for relief from the automatic stay under three conditions.
in re knight, 8 b.r. 925(d.c. md. 1981)1. the landlord can only sue for rent after the filing. 2. the landlord cannot sue until the trustee rejects the lease (if it is not accepted within 60 days then it is deemed rejected) 3. the landlord must sue under the terms of the lease and may not treat the trustee's rejection as a breach.
if it is a ch 13 filing, then the landlord should be paid rent as it is due. if the tenant files bankruptcy after a final judgement of eviction has been entered, there should be no problems lifting the stay as the tenant no longer has an interest in the property.
Comments
Oh, PCGS has experts. The opposition has experts.
Whom will the jurors believe? What defines the judge/jurors expertise in this matter?
I think a preponderance of evidence will sway them. The attorneys will bring a preponderance of evidence, each.
Deja vu and Veja vu. 'enuff said'.
Then they're certainly the exception to the rule, and I would suspect they would agree.
I wasn't passing judgement, I was just stating the obvious.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Wondercoin is a very happily RETIRED lawyer
Congrats on your retirement. Do you like it better than what you used to do?
I certainly meant no offense to anyone individually, and I hope none was taken. But I'll stand by that statement as it has been my experience. Lawyers are people too, so there certainly are exceptions to the rule. I'd give Wonder and coinguy the benefit of the doubt.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I spent a little time pondering your point, and I find my argument suspect. If I may reduce your hypothesis to it's simpler form -
PCGS puts themselves forward as the best graders in the business.
They state unequivocally that they won't grade AT coins.
They guarantee their holdered coins.
If I tell you it is not possible to detect AT with 100% accuracy using normal grading procedures, I am admitting PCGS's inability to do what they claim. If I tell you they have set the bar too high, PCGS has overstated their own ability. If PCGS can't do what they claim, they should remove that potential liability or I should short the stock. Disproving their ability to accurately detect AT coins only requires one sucessful submission.
It is an indefensible argument, and obviously PCGS should change the rhetoric to something like - we will not knowingly holder an AT coin.
A large part of PCGS's problem is the value the market has given their grading opinion. A $50 holder can be worth $10's of thousands on the right coin. I'm not sure that is not "our" failing.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
PCGS says buy only their product.
Do I sense an echo of Microsoft?
The idea of a company cornering a market always seems to piss-off someone somewhere.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
What PCGS is really saying is 'buy PCGS slabs only and you won't get ripped off. So I can see how all those other investors in all them other grading companies are going to just shrugg their shoulders and say,'well gee wiz, we better switch and buy PCGS. I don't believe that will happen. That's not the American way. I would think it's more like, 'well let's see if they can put their money where their mouth is.'
And litigation just may find it's way into a company to knock it down a notch or two.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
PCGS puts themselves forward as the best graders in the business.
They state unequivocally that they won't grade AT coins.
>>
Perhaps they just don't know that they grade AT coins, but they have, and will continue to miss on these.
But ultimately, why would this matter if the coin is nice? At some point the buyer has to spend a few moments actually looking at his/her purchases and deciding whether they like the coin.
Many masterpieces in the art world have been "doctored" to help current and future generations enjoy the artwork.
There is always the possibility that future generations of collectors will be glad the coin they bought was dipped 50-150 years earlier to prevent further toning or enjoy that a layer of color was placed on the surfaces to enhance the appearance of the coin.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
www.saharacoins.com
&
Vintage Paper Memories
www.vintagepapermemories.com
<< <i>enjoy that a layer of color was placed on the surfaces to enhance the appearance of the coin. >>
Yeah right, sounds like someone I would want to do business with.
Most lawyers are decent human beings that have spouses, raise children, donate to charity and try to help out once and awhile. In any profession, there will always be a bell curve of morality, whether its lawyers, coin dealers, doctors or police officers.
Out of everyone DHeath found my point and really nailed it. Leo is a close second. Accountability. Where's the accountability? Does anyone care about that anymore? This is part of the problem with America, no one feels accountable anymore. Who will hold someone's feet to the fire. It's a dirty and nasty job, but guess who gets to shovel the sh*t of this world -- lawyers.
I've seen company after company take advantage of their employees, don't pay overtime correctly, fire them when they complain. I've seen HUGE corporations swindle millions out of their money, one penny @ a time. And guess who's there to get it back - the lawyers. You hate class action lawsuits - fine - go sue RCA in small claims court when the TV you bought breaks 2 days after the warranty expires. And they knew it was going to happen and shorten their normal warranty on that particular set by 6 months, so you then get to pay them repair fees. Go sue Blockbuster when you return a movie late by 1 hour and they charge you 5 days rental fees, then turn around and re-rent it to someone else 10 minutes after you leave, doubling their money and ripping you off. Doesn't sound like much to you, but do you realize companies come up with these schemes and then they wait for the class actions to come. They might make tens of millions illegally. It's a cat and mouse game.
Don't feel bad for the companies of this world, they aren't there to be nice to you. They are there to make money for their investors, in any way possible.
Maybe I'm just old fashion, I expect people & companies to live up to their contracts. If you say you're going to do something do it. Its as simple as that. And if you can't, don't say you can and try to convince everyone that you are, when you're really not.
Sure, lets blame the coin doctors, but not anyone else for this problem? If a company places themselves in the stream of commerce and says "hey, buy our product over Brand X, because our brand can do A,B & C and theirs can't" well, they, themselves have put a big bullseye (no toning pun intended) on their chest. Not me.
What about turn around times for grading - not to get off the point, but that's another example. Send your coins in and we'll get them back to you in 21 days. So you send off your $99 or $179 for a membership and guess what, sorry its 45 days, sorry it's now 50 days. And we're suppose to be okay with that? They don't wait 45 or 50 days to charge your credit card or cash your check do they? While your coin sits in some vault, they're making money with your money, always remember the "float" it's the same way banks make their money.
Instead of reading this post as though some money grubby ambulance chasing attorney has been writing it, read it as though a fed-up client and consumer of PCGS has been writing it.
While some of you may not remember, when I joined this Forum, there was a "problem" with PCGS's policy in regards to providing free grading once a set has become 90% complete. The language was a little misleading and Registry members where being informed that unless they register their set all at once and they were 95% complete, you were not entitled to the free grading offer. While I'm not taking credit for it, but you can read between the lines, I sent several emails to various PCGS/CU corporate types, indicating my "legal" take on the situation. Well they changed the policy almost immediately, but of course, according to PCGS it had nothing to do with me or my emails.
Flame me if you will, drink your PCGS flavored Kool-Aid if you must, tell yourself that your toned PCGS coins are 100% natural, anything that it takes to make yourself feel better about my posts. But please, open your thoughts, minds, eyes and ears and think.
Michael
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
My question to you is:
Are you sure that some of your specific issues (the legal implications you perceive) are applicable when it comes to "collectible coins?" I'm under the impression that the "hobby protection act," or some similar precedent(s) or ruling kinda' put coins (in this case) in a area of law unto itself. In other words, many legal issues one might expect to apply, just may not.
Have you taken this into consideration when making some of the statements/recommendations/inferences you make?
It simply become too difficult to draft those legal briefs with an original bag of coins on the desk in neat piles. Everytime I reached for the pen, I grabbed the loupe
Wondercoin
OUCH!!!!
Congrats on retirement. Wish I could work for them
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
No my lawyer bashing must not stop - I thought you lawyers realized this is a free country!
You say yourself "Let me apologize to all of you on the behalf of all attorneys who have swindled, cheated, lied and basically screwed you over. We're sorry. Feel better now?". Oh, so you have done that as well have you?
Personally, I think your anti-corporate stance is a bunch of sickening B.S. Sure, you can find bad in any profession, but the legal profession leaves the others in the dust in quantity of bad and magnitude of bad.
You say my R.C.A. T.V. breaks just after the warranty. First off all, I know enough about electronics to know that it would be pretty damn tough to calculate to the day an appliance would break whether the buyer uses the T.V. alot or a little bit. Your claim that they knew this would happen is just your guess - you have no proof whatsoever, do you?.
Second of all, if a company's product goes bad - guess what - this is America and we can chose (despite what you lawyers want). If I liked the T.V. it should be my right to go and buy another one or pay for the repair, despite the inflated prices I now have to pay since the T.V. company has a bunch of legal fees. If I feel I was wronged I have every right to look elsewhere.
As for the blockbuster type of thing, what do they do when they get sued for stuff like this? Right, they pass higher prices on to the consumer. So myself being a good guy who would not return movies late (Why return a movie 10 minutes late when you usually get 3-4 days now), now has to pay twice as much to rent a movie - because of greedy corporations? - No, because of greedy lawyers. No one is forced to do business with these companies. I have yet to see Microsoft or even Phillip Morris point guns at people and demand they buy their product. Now, if they were to do this, it would be a different story.
I always hear this stuff about "good people with families, raising kids", etc. Just because they have families and are raising kids doesn't mean they are good people - they know damn well what harm they are doing to the country and they should take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves why. You didn't answer to my McDonald's examples, did you? They basically steal a bunch of money from good corporations (and in reality from the shareholders and workers at those companies) and then you claim they donate money. Gee, what a nice guy. Sues for a million bucks over some bogus thing like a trace of meat in his french fries and then gives $100 to the homeless shelter that is now feeding people who were laid off by that corporation after they paid out.
Did you also ever stop to realize all the people who have jobs in these companies, and all of the shareholders of these companies? Did you ever stop to realize that these companies could pay their employees more, and still make their shareholders happy if they didn't have these usually B.S. lawsuits hanging over them?
You talk about the PCGS thing where you could get a coin with 90% complete and say they did this bad thing of requiring 95% and registered all at once. So what! This was a free offer on PCGS's part! You are going to critisize them for this offer? Gee, maybe now they will think twice before giving more free gradings. Way to go. Will you provide free legal services? Does your corporation always charge small fees? I ask you again Michael - Does your law firm ALWAYS WIN EVERY CASE? If not, then how in the hell can you expect PCGS to ALWAYS GET EVERY COIN RIGHT??
As far as accountability goes since you claim to be so damn concerned about it - I consider it to be in the eyes of the customer. If I send coins to PCGS and they promise 45 days and it is 50, I can stop doing business with them. It is as simple as that. Just like those clients who hired you and you lost the case - they could come back to you next time, or go elsewhere.
As you can see, I don't have much care for most lawyers, especially those who go after corporations over minor issues or those who go after individuals who really haven't done any harm. Maybe you are one of the few good lawyers out there - but I wouldn't count on it based on your attacks on a company that has always been on the side of the consumer (PCGS). BTW, I don't collect toned coins, but that really isn't the issue here.
JJacks
Baseball,
Sorry, my hands are about to braek and fme can no longer typppee. Wai.m.letme sue keyboardmm.maker... manyebbrbe PCgss for doingnnggngn thsiis too meme... Aaah... Da paiiin....Why didddn'ttt I reaeasdffd theher wraeernringgs onnnn keeeyeboaradd.d..
Just in case anyone is worried about me, that is a joke!
I like your style Base. I have listened to many lawyers preach their "moral consious" about how the "Big" guy (i.e. McDonalds) is "screwing" over the little guy (i.e. person who got fat, maybe from McD's - maybe from his Aunt's cooking - who knows!). Then, after screwing over the workers and shareholders of the company, they drive off in their Mercedes S600 and tell their wife how they are going to do good and donate $20 to some cause. Geez.
JJacks
you say "where's accountability?" I agree! where is accountability within the legal profession? Wheres accountability/redress for the lawyer who twisted enought things around that a tenant could stay in an apartment rent free for ten months in spite of his destruction of the premises (photographes and shown in court)? All this lawyer got was elected to a political office in good old Santa Monica because she "helps consumers/tenants". Wheres accountabilty for the lawyer who first contests a UD two months after the last rent check was received; then advises the tenant to file for bankruptcy to stay to execution of the eviction, anbd then, several momnths later after the stay was reversed by the bankruptcy court, advices the tenant to file for bankruptcy again to get a second stay because it will take the court several months to figure it out and disallow the second filing. Where's accountability there? I could go on and on, but those are two (albeit rather exterme) actual cases that have occurred ---the plaintiff/landlord in each of them was my wife. Until lawyers are held accountable (by being required to make a successfuly plaintiff whole), we will continue to be deluged with dishonest, unethical lawyers in the name of "defending the consumer". I am the first to admit that there are many times consumers need to be defended. good friends of mine (husband/wife attorney pair) are one of the more visible and successful firms in the country (they're one of the twelve or so involved as leads in the WTC litigation). I truly believe they honestly and ethically and morally serve people who need to be served.
But for everyone who is helped, some one is hurt. the legal system has fixed it so through legal aid lawyers acting without fee, people have nothing to loseand they thereby extract a few more months of free living from a landlord. god help the landlord if she cannot afford the utility payment and the gas gets turned off. I could go on and on with examples from my wifes 25 years in the rental business but you get the picture. Helping the consumer is ONYLY good in a situation where the vendor has knowinbgly wronged the consumer. and today's legal profession goes after money---I'm not rich, but we do have more resources than moost of the tenants in our buildings. So we are a good target for someone who cannot afford to pay his rent. have you ever been told that "I can't pay the rent becasue my vacation to Europe last month caost more than I thought it would"? My wife has been told that by a tenant who was already behind in their rent. I sure hope (and I assume) that isn't the kind of "consumer/little guy" that you think the legal system should help while the sellers/landlords/etc. foot the bill.
enough of my ranting, but I think you see where (and, I hope, why) I'm coming from. Defending the little guy; defending the consumer is NOT always the right and moral and just thing to do!
Pete
BTW, I really don't care for Lawyers myself, been through a divorce enough said.
Ok, should I duck now?
Stman,
I won't tear into you, but you need to understand this. Attacking PCGS because a few AT coins may possibly have slipped past them is a long, long ways away from actually helping people. Instead of going after companies that clearly don't have peoples interest at heart such as some questionable 3rd party companies, this would only:
1. Raise fees, quite possibly by double or so.
2. Increase submission times - if PCGS knows they could get sued, don't you think they would want to take a long time to decide on a coin.
3. Possibly knock a company like PCGS or NGC out of business - gee that does alot of good!
My point is that if you want to pay a large fee and wait along time for your coins, why doesn't a service such as that come about - why must they be forced on us by some lawyers who smell blood? Don't think that any lawyer is actually trying to "make a difference...". They see money - they attack any minor issue - they go on to the next opprotunity, possibly leaving the first industry in shambles. If a lawyer really, truely wants to help, why not form an organization that would spot AT and help inform the public, etc., instead of attacking a good institution that people such as myself use to help us avoid fraud. As I said, personally, I don't even collect toned coins, so it would be meaningless to me, yet I would still have to face the three items above if this were carried out.
JJacks
In the first place, I don't see that PCGS has been allowed to "follow through" with their "implied warranty," or that as of yet, they have violated it. Second, I can't see the rationale in reimbursing anyone for anything higher than the market-determined value of the coin at the time of purchase (with no premium for toning). Third, I think it sets a dangerous precedent, and could very well lead to additional and unnecessary proceedures such as Fratt's earlier proposal of "closing" on a coin as you would a piece of real estate (do I really need a lawyer in order to purchase a 43-S PCGS slabbed Lincoln?).
Coins are an investment just as stocks are. If you buy the right one, at the right time, you get a return. If you buy the wrong one, at the wrong time, you lose money. If this succeeds, and an implied warranty is determined to have been breached, I'd like to sue Coca Cola because I'm ready to sell my stock NOW and their value isn't as high as I think it should be.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>If a lawyer really, truely wants to help, why not form an organization that would spot AT and help inform the public, >>
JJacks, I understand your point completely. And believe it or not I'm not siding one way or the other.
Having said that, Frattlaw even tried and mentioned the above quote of trying to form a website.
He was given a written "Warning, leave it up to the experts" by one of the "Major Players." Yes some of the major stuff should be left up to the experts, but I think sometimes the experts think just because us small collectors don't buy and sell millions of dollars in coins, and don't walk the boarse at major shows, that we know nothing. And have no business commenting on anything.
Sometimes I think they just want us to turn on our PC, sit down, shut up, and go to their website and buy their coins that we know nothing about.
I'm done now and I feel better now.
If the coin was purchased at a large public auction (like Goldbergs) and then resold again at or above the previous price then is that not the true market value of the coin regardless if it has toning or not?? I thought the market value was what a group of people are willing to pay for an item whether it is posted on a web site price guide or not? Who determines what REAL market value is, which web site is considered the true barometer of a coins values. How did they come up with those prices?? Did they watch major auction prices or dealer prices?? If so they must not be accurate as that is the same way values for toned coins come about isn't it? I agree that one coin sale does not make a market but it has been a number of years (and many many dealers/collectors) which has increased the value of toned coins and unfortunately the trend does not seem to be changing so does that not make a market i.e. market value for those coins?
in re knight, 8 b.r. 925(d.c. md. 1981)1. the landlord can only sue for rent after the filing. 2. the landlord cannot sue until the trustee rejects the lease (if it is not accepted within 60 days then it is deemed rejected) 3. the landlord must sue under the terms of the lease and may not treat the trustee's rejection as a breach.
if it is a ch 13 filing, then the landlord should be paid rent as it is due.
if the tenant files bankruptcy after a final judgement of eviction has been entered, there should be no problems lifting the stay as the tenant no longer has an interest in the property.
the free legal advice window is now closed...