That is a staggering figure and the first I have seen someone of DH's expertise venture on the AT debate. homerunhall just posted this at the Q&A Forum: LINK
Of course, Kennedy halves cannot be toned, considering that they were minted a mere 40 or so years ago. Much in the same, potatoes should never have toning, since they grew just months before making it into most coin collections. Nothing worse than an AT spud.
I guess PCGS wants me to dip ALL toned coins.I have an idea.How about if BJ does a survey and asks if people want to collect toned coins or dipped coins?
IMO 75% of all white coins before1916 are dipped
Stewart
ps What is NT Natural Toning as opposed to AT artificial toning?
<< <i>Of course, Kennedy halves cannot be toned, considering that they were minted a mere 40 or so years ago. Much in the same, potatoes should never have toning, since they grew just months before making it into most coin collections. Nothing worse than an AT spud. >>
ArtR, Toningintheblood, Toneddollar, Gemtone65, Monsterman, et al......please forward your entire collections to me so that I can bail you out of your AT'd coins. I'll be sure to return the 60 to 80% of those that I deem original.
GSAGUY
P.S. Do it.........................for the children. If I forgot anyone, please PM me.
I believe David is correct in his assertion about toned coins, and I would say the figure would be 30-40%. However, I disagree with his statement on dipped coins. It has been my view that about 50% of white coins are dipped.
I'm surprised that a President and CEO of PCGS would go on a public forum and make a statement like that with the potential for litigation around over this AT thing, knowing that his graders spend a total of about 10 seconds grading each coin.
I have a feeling that statement is going to come back and bite him in a deposition.
C'mon, Frat ... you think too much like a lawyer! And, here's a second to Stewart's observation that many white early classics have been dipped ... but, as homerun notes, a judicious dip is not considered body-bag material.
You tone collectors can't get over the fact that anyone with half a brain in chemistry can tone a coin almost overnight and make it as beautiful and almost any colore you want!
Its just a fact. Toning is nothing more than a chemical reaction of an element in the environment.
I know they grade these things mint state and we have discussed this and beat it to death, but a tarnished or chemically altered coin is far from mint state.
Here's what Laura told me in a PM, do you think I should believe her?
<<What Hall really said (in slo mo)
ALL 78CC Dollars ARE AT. Beware of any from down south, seems to be a BIG factory cranking them out. We need to impound those coins before they turn bad. Anyone with those coins should send them to Legend ASAP.
WOW! That was powerful message. What courage it took to say that. Yes, I'll help PCGS on that issue!
LSS>>
How should I describe Lady Laura?......pleasantly persistent?......yea, that's it.
I know they grade these things mint state and we have discussed this and beat it to death, but a tarnished or chemically altered coin is far from mint state. >>
Your opinion, and your entitled to it. But its wrong.
I have seen very few "toned" coins coming directly from the mint or if stored properly become toned. (Mint State)
In any case, I've also grown to appreciate rainbow toned coins, however they get that way, when you can still read the date and see the details of the coin.
I must be wrong because people pay a hell of a lot of money for them and PCGS and all the other grading services grade them...you are right, its just my opinion.
Please remove your head from David's butt, or else I will send him a link to your web site so that he can see that you called PCGS "stupid".
NumisEd,
There's really no call for that kind of language. I think it is fine that you disagree with someone else's opinions, but let;s try to disagree civilly, ok?
GSA -- I'll tell you one thing, I may not be an expert in toning and grading, but we are experts in class action litigation and consumer protection in California and we are looking into this as a potential class action litigation. It's a stretch, but it maybe possible.
This whole AT/coin doctoring has me quite interested legally and numismatically, and consumer protection laws are really the way to get to the point where the fraud is stopped completely. Nothing like attorneys fees @ $450 per hour to bring even the largest companies to their knees.
<< <i>Eh, I've been flamed by better! I'd much rather have my head up Davids butt than Numiseds anyway! Besides, I have a serious issue w/GSA Guy anyway. I need to protect the world from BAD 78CC toned Morgans. >>
there's nothing new here. naturally, dipping olders coins - which of course is ALWAYS done to "protect" 'em, never to enhance their salability - is OK.
i think hall's way off. the majority of blast-white coins aren't dipped? c'mon. more like 75 - 85%, unless you skew the numbers w/ coins that have been minted in the last 20 years, thousands of which are in slabs.
the double standard never ceases to amaze. coins w/ color added to make a coin more salable - that's doctoring. coins w/ color removed to make a coin more salable - that's OK?
I think part of the problem (and the reaction) to David Hall's statement is that it is a generalization. When he saids that most blast white coins have not been dipped you have to ask which segment or type of coins is discussing. He said the majority of white coins haven't been dipped. That true if you include the tens of millions of coins minted, saved and stored correctly over the last say 10, 20 or 30 years. If you made the same statement about Bust Half's you'd be laught off the board.
I think the same holds true for toned coins. You probably have certain segments or coin types where the number of ATed coins is higher than others. Then again if you we're discussing 100+ year old coins the vast majority would have some level of toning and as you get to more modern coins the chances that a coin with spectacular toning was helped would tend to increase.
I'd also be interested in how broad his definition is for ATed. One hundred years ago the storage methods typically promoted toning. That's a matter of historical happenstance. Today the storage media and environment are less like to promote toning. If intent is a factor in determining whether a coin is ATed then it is more likely that a modern coin with toning was intentional placed in an environment to promote toning then coins that were minted/stored 100+ years ago.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
<< <i>That is a surprise. We all know that 100% of Russ' coins have been dipped >>
Actually - Unless I'm misinterpreting - DCAM is saying that somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
As personal witness to most of Russ' acquisitions, I can attest that they are most decidedly NOT 100% dipped. His cobalt-blue toned set is just one example. Dipping would have stripped that toning in a heartbeat. None of his Walkers, none of his 2-cents, and none of the other classics has he, or would he touch.
I can certainly understand where there would be an objection to dipping an older coin. But a modern proof (designed and intended to be as near "perfect" as possible) that has developed hazing, thereby reducing its appeal (and hence value) I respectfully submit - is a slightly different story. He (and many others) have spent countless hours practicing and perfecting a technique that removes only surface contaminants that were not there at the time of minting, and therefore should not be there now - or removes the residual from a bad dip. (equally contaminated) Some folks have not spent the time, and they do in fact damage the coin.
The care and respect he shows to these coins fits solidly into the realm of conservation, and the 5-step process he developed results in a stabilized surface that does not exhibit contaminants, nor does it damage the surfaces.
Overly-sweeping generalizations almost always end up offending someone, since there are so many areas of the hobby, and so many approaches. Some see coins as sacred, some see them as merely commodities to be bought and sold without regard to the history. Any time people are passionate about something, there is conflict - and difference of opinion. Sharing the opinions without becoming overly hurt by the existence of another theory is good for all IMHO.
I know I gained a significant amount of new knowledge about coins, and a respect for them by seeing the amount of time and effort Russ puts into educating himself, and teaching-by-learning. I won't speak for Russ regarding his feelings about the issue in its entirety, but I can certainly say that what I've seen has been careful, almost "loving" conservation with regard to modern proof coins - equal to anything NCS does.
I do feel that purposely AT'ing a coin is wrong. Conserving one is different. Again - only my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
I think it's way higher than 40%. Probably around 95%. Also, unfortunately, soon they will find a way to unequivocally detect artificial toning. It's just a matter of time.
Magnificently toned coins will soon plummet in value to less than bluesheet. The stock of the maker of Jewel Luster will go up 500% overnight. Also, "people proof umbrellas" will fly off the shelves, purchased by paranoid pedestrians to protect their persons from plumeting toned coin investors who have jumped to their deaths.
All i can see is my wife, her face looming in front of me, wagging her finger at me screaming "I told you to buy white modern coins!"
Comments
Russ, NCNE
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I guess PCGS wants me to dip ALL toned coins.I have an idea.How about if BJ does a survey and asks if people want to collect toned coins or dipped coins?
IMO 75% of all white coins before1916 are dipped
Stewart
ps What is NT Natural Toning as opposed to AT artificial toning?
<< <i>Of course, Kennedy halves cannot be toned, considering that they were minted a mere 40 or so years ago. Much in the same, potatoes should never have toning, since they grew just months before making it into most coin collections. Nothing worse than an AT spud. >>
Woops!
peacockcoins
ArtR, Toningintheblood, Toneddollar, Gemtone65, Monsterman, et al......please forward your entire collections to me so that I can bail you out of your AT'd coins. I'll be sure to return the 60 to 80% of those that I deem original.
GSAGUY
P.S. Do it.........................for the children.
That was a bold statement. Thank you David!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Please remove your head from David's butt, or else I will send him a link to your web site so that he can see that you called PCGS "stupid".
I have a feeling that statement is going to come back and bite him in a deposition.
Michael
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
David Hall also sells predominantly white coins. And of course PCGS loves 'em too. I'm not surprised that he's stumping for white coins.
roadrunner
Its just a fact. Toning is nothing more than a chemical reaction of an element in the environment.
I know they grade these things mint state and we have discussed this and beat it to death, but a tarnished or chemically altered coin is far from mint state.
<< <i>Please remove your head from David's butt, or else I will send him a link to your web site so that he can see that you called PCGS "stupid". >>
Yo NumisEd,
Beyond the fact that that was WAY beyond the pale, David Hall has already read Laura's article, and has even commented on it in another thread.
Russ, NCNE
<<What Hall really said (in slo mo)
ALL 78CC Dollars ARE AT. Beware of any from down south, seems to be a BIG factory cranking them out. We need to impound those coins before they turn bad. Anyone with those coins should send them to Legend ASAP.
WOW! That was powerful message. What courage it took to say that. Yes, I'll help PCGS on that issue!
LSS>>
How should I describe Lady Laura?......pleasantly persistent?......yea, that's it.
GSAGUY
I know they grade these things mint state and we have discussed this and beat it to death, but a tarnished or chemically altered coin is far from mint state. >>
Your opinion, and your entitled to it. But its wrong.
I believe that he could make that claim but still be interpreted as 'excluding' PCGS slabs......sounds like an attorney doesn't it.
GSAGUY
I'd much rather have my head up Davids butt than Numiseds anyway!
Besides, I have a serious issue w/GSA Guy anyway. I need to protect the world from BAD 78CC toned Morgans.
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
In any case, I've also grown to appreciate rainbow toned coins, however they get that way, when you can still read the date and see the details of the coin.
I must be wrong because people pay a hell of a lot of money for them and PCGS and all the other grading services grade them...you are right, its just my opinion.
Or, that's a heck of a lot of resubmissions!!!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
NumisEd,
There's really no call for that kind of language. I think it is fine that you disagree with someone else's opinions, but let;s try to disagree civilly, ok?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I still like white coins. I am starting to like toned coins but don't get it, and don't plan on buying any.
I prefer white coins, and I don't see that changing.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
<< <i>Nope! White coins are hip! >>
I can dig the Hip but this Kitty would say Hep mommy-o!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
But a bright white MS67 or 68 Walking Liberty is a sight to behold!
This whole AT/coin doctoring has me quite interested legally and numismatically, and consumer protection laws are really the way to get to the point where the fraud is stopped completely. Nothing like attorneys fees @ $450 per hour to bring even the largest companies to their knees.
Michael
<< <i>Eh, I've been flamed by better! I'd much rather have my head up Davids butt than Numiseds anyway! Besides, I have a serious issue w/GSA Guy anyway. I need to protect the world from BAD 78CC toned Morgans.
Enough with the visuals!!
peacockcoins
I don't know you, Laura, or David, but I do know that your comment was WAAAY out of line. You should be ashamed!
Regards,
Wayne
Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
<< <i>But a bright white MS67 or 68 Walking Liberty is a sight to behold! >>
Hey, even an MS64 can be a sight to behold.
Russ, NCNE
Can you impound real estate? As in mansions?
If that an MS64, then that is a real MONSTER! I wish all MS64's could look like that! WOOOWWEEE!!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
WOW!
My short set is all MS64 and most look like that.
Russ, NCNE
A perfect example of why I like 'em white!
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Amazing how NumisEd can even type twisted up like a pretzel to get his own head shoved firmly up his own............
It is not in her character to say or do anything that she does not believe in with all of her heart.
She will praise where it is deserved, and roast someone over an open fire when it is deserved.
But above all else, she is a lady in every meaning of the word ., I abhor your intemperate
remark with every fiber of my being.The next time you have ,what you believe is a cogent thought,
run it through a coffee filter a few times, before it is allowed to spew forth and irritate the rest of
us on this Forum. Bear
Camelot
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>The AT part doesn't surprise me but him saying most white coins HAVE NOT been dipped blows my mind. >>
That is a surprise. We all know that 100% of Russ' coins have been dipped.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
i think hall's way off. the majority of blast-white coins aren't dipped? c'mon. more like 75 - 85%, unless you skew the numbers w/ coins that have been minted in the last 20 years, thousands of which are in slabs.
the double standard never ceases to amaze. coins w/ color added to make a coin more salable - that's doctoring. coins w/ color removed to make a coin more salable - that's OK?
who's zoomin who?
K S
I think the same holds true for toned coins. You probably have certain segments or coin types where the number of ATed coins is higher than others. Then again if you we're discussing 100+ year old coins the vast majority would have some level of toning and as you get to more modern coins the chances that a coin with spectacular toning was helped would tend to increase.
I'd also be interested in how broad his definition is for ATed. One hundred years ago the storage methods typically promoted toning. That's a matter of historical happenstance. Today the storage media and environment are less like to promote toning. If intent is a factor in determining whether a coin is ATed then it is more likely that a modern coin with toning was intentional placed in an environment to promote toning then coins that were minted/stored 100+ years ago.
<< <i>That is a surprise. We all know that 100% of Russ' coins have been dipped >>
Actually - Unless I'm misinterpreting - DCAM is saying that somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
As personal witness to most of Russ' acquisitions, I can attest that they are most decidedly NOT 100% dipped. His cobalt-blue toned set is just one example. Dipping would have stripped that toning in a heartbeat.
None of his Walkers, none of his 2-cents, and none of the other classics has he, or would he touch.
I can certainly understand where there would be an objection to dipping an older coin. But a modern proof (designed and intended to be as near "perfect" as possible) that has developed hazing, thereby reducing its appeal (and hence value) I respectfully submit - is a slightly different story. He (and many others) have spent countless hours practicing and perfecting a technique that removes only surface contaminants that were not there at the time of minting, and therefore should not be there now - or removes the residual from a bad dip. (equally contaminated) Some folks have not spent the time, and they do in fact damage the coin.
The care and respect he shows to these coins fits solidly into the realm of conservation, and the 5-step process he developed results in a stabilized surface that does not exhibit contaminants, nor does it damage the surfaces.
Overly-sweeping generalizations almost always end up offending someone, since there are so many areas of the hobby, and so many approaches. Some see coins as sacred, some see them as merely commodities to be bought and sold without regard to the history. Any time people are passionate about something, there is conflict - and difference of opinion. Sharing the opinions without becoming overly hurt by the existence of another theory is good for all IMHO.
I know I gained a significant amount of new knowledge about coins, and a respect for them by seeing the amount of time and effort Russ puts into educating himself, and teaching-by-learning. I won't speak for Russ regarding his feelings about the issue in its entirety, but I can certainly say that what I've seen has been careful, almost "loving" conservation with regard to modern proof coins - equal to anything NCS does.
I do feel that purposely AT'ing a coin is wrong. Conserving one is different. Again - only my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
Magnificently toned coins will soon plummet in value to less than bluesheet. The stock of the maker of Jewel Luster will go up 500% overnight. Also, "people proof umbrellas" will fly off the shelves, purchased by paranoid pedestrians to protect their persons from plumeting toned coin investors who have jumped to their deaths.
All i can see is my wife, her face looming in front of me, wagging her finger at me screaming "I told you to buy white modern coins!"
AAAAhhhhhh!!!!!
what percentage of slabed coins are market-unacceptable?
a response of "zero" would be very, very interesting.
K S