PCGS Roosevelt Dimes

littlewicher · February 17, 2003 12:07PM

I was looking on ebay at PCGS Roosevelt Dimes. Is it me or do they seem to be pretty strict while grading them? The coins that I saw on ebay appeared to be nearly flawless, with good strikes and awesome luster. Is PCGS scared to give grades over MS66 on these coins? Also, what really separates a 66, 67, and 68? The amount of awesome 66s is astounding. Will PCGS ever loosen up a little on this sometimes overlooked series?

TomB · February 17, 2003 12:24PM

Hi lw, I've sent in quite a few Roosevelts to PCGS and will share my experience with you. Please keep in mind that all the Roosevelts that I sent in were lightly or deeply toned and all were silver. I notice that what keeps this type of coin out of an MS67 holder is the strike more than anything else. These coins are often weakly struck around the edges and coins that are gorgeous and that have nearly no marks will often end up as MS66 if they are weakly stuck. Otherwise, coins that are well struck and have some vivid color splashes in them will get the bump to MS67 even if they are otherwise more marked. I hope this helps.

littlewicher · February 17, 2003 12:26PM

So in your experience, how many blast white coins have you seen in 68 holders? How would a coin make 68, if it was blast white. Would it have to have a completely full strike, and just blazing luster, with absolutely no marks?

nwcs · February 17, 2003 12:26PM

I think they're really picky about light marks on the surface. As D. Hall said, the smaller the coin, the fewer marks are allowed (and in proportionate size) on the coin. So it could be that proportionately they are grading just fine. After all, you wouldn't want Morgan dollar size reeding marks on a roosie and still see it called a 65!

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 12:29PM

A pcgs blast white ms68 would be a stunning rarity. It would be as you describe with very few marks.

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 12:39PM

Wondercoin would likely be the best to describe a '64 that is as you describe, with almost no marks that couldn't get past 67.99 upon review after review with RM. Mitch is off-line right now, but will undoubtedly be dropping in. This was an exasperating experience for him, I'm sure, as the coin has 8 written in bold all over it.

TomB · February 17, 2003 12:41PM

I've never even seen a silver PCGS MS68 Roosevelt that was blast white, however, as RC has written, I would bet that wondercoin could give us an education on them.

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 12:43PM

To my knowledge, it still sits restlessly in a 7 holder.

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 12:57PM

Well, I guess Mitch is at dinner, so I'll add a little more.
I know of no blast white p8 roosies either.
There must be some unwritten rule somewhere concerning this.
Because, IMO, this blast white p7 roosie, that I referred to, had/still has the best shot at p8 of any blast white p7, n7/n8/n8*/raw example out there.
Mitch and Tom have seen literally TONS more white roosies than I. I have had the pleasure of owning some 8s, all toned, most exceptionally so.
Mitch and I had a goal of making a blast white 8, and worked long and hard towards that goal. In fact, I think that is how we met. He has a better L-T memory than I, well, memory, in general.
Oh, well, I forget where I was going with this, so, I'll wait until there are some more questions, or Mitch finishes desert.
Thanks for the chance to discuss roosies, one of my personal favorites.

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 1:12PM

Still not back yet, huh? Well this is too much fun to pass on, so I'll continue. Sorry for the interruption, with the three year old grabbing my fingers, I lost concentration, and was overwhelmed with a desire to "play". Back to topic.

There was a time a few years back when there were darn few p7s. Many dates had none.
Going through rolls to find candidates was fun and quite popular. Prices of real, original rolls of silver roosies skyrocketed, making a current grey sheet value look like it was decades old.
As more and more roosie dates had a representative coin in the 7 catagory, and one or two 8s were made, the game became, who could make an 8....

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 1:38PM

ok, she's off to(wards) bed. I won't let you in on the more "challenging" details.

Next chapter...
About this time, there were rumors that pcgs was going to start a registry, and a good handful of people were closing in on, or had a full set roosies in ms67. It was forseen that without an 8, each registrant would be in a tie at the top at 67.00, 100%.
It was about this point that I decided to put together two sets of roosies in pcgs ms67+, one blast white and the other beautifully toned.
Putting another set together with all 7s wasn't a problem. Finding a nicely toned piece for each date/mint was very difficult. But the blast white set was the most challenging. Often a white, or white-ish coin would be available. Often a coin with toning would be available, but finding "beautiful", and "brilliant white" for each slot, was definately a challenge.
Who knew if there would be a flurry of 8s, or no more graded? Who knew if I/we could make 'em?

wondercoin · February 17, 2003 1:47PM

1946-1964 PCGS-MS68 BLAST WHITE ROOSEVELT DIME:

I have unsuccessfully tried for around 15 years (since roughly 1988) to locate and slab a "true" PCGS-MS68 BLAST WHITE ROOSEVELT DIME. Yet, there are hundreds and hundreds of PCGS-MS68 and better Mercury Dimes slabbed, as well as a multitude of NGC-MS68 blast white Roosies. I do not believe a single blast white PCGS-MS68 Roosie exists, although, admittedly, there are a few PCGS-MS68 coins in the pop report I have not seen. I believe even the holder of the top NGC Roosie set (with 40/48 coins in the set NGC-MS68 or better) and fellow board member, OnlyRoosies, will agree that not a single one of his NGC MS68 BLAST WHITE dimes would qualify for the PCGS-MS68, applying the proper PCGS standard (i.e. not a mistake grade).

As RC mentions, for all the years he owned the finest set of MS PCGS Roosies ever assembled, we were never able to slab a blast white PCGS-MS68 Roosie. So, what makes this task so darn difficult? I HAVE NO IDEA!!

Roosies come nice and MS65/66 coins are quite easy to locate. Even PCGS-MS67 specimens are "a dime a dozen" so to speak

But, for the most part, the top grade stops there, as virtually no Mint State example comes "mark free" with a strong strike and great luster. Often times, a coin might come with a "mark-free" appearance with great luster BUT LOW END STRIKE (i.e. many 1954(s) or 1955(s) specimens). Other coins might come with a much better strike and great luster, but will always have their share of marks (i.e. 1949(d), 1950(d)). Finding the combination of all 3 variables (virtually no marks, great luster and a great strike) is what I have been looking for (unsuccessfully) for 15 years!!

Of course, RC's blast white PCGS-MS67 SET had some great MS67++ coins in it - but, just shy of what it takes for the MS68 grade. Of course, if PCGS ever changes it standards many coins will be MS68 candidates. But, to PCGS' credit, they have not deviated from the standard EVER (so far).

I could write about Roosies all night long.

An interesting sideline of collecting the finest quality examples is trying to locate Roosies (and Wash quarters) in MINT STATE GEM DEEP MIRROR PROOF LIKE. I will bring a 1948(s) Roosie and a 1950(s) Quarter in gem quality DEEP MIRROR PROOF LIKE to Long Beach (Table 651) and if you drop on by I can show you examples of some of the coolest moderns I enjoy collecting. These coins look deeper PROOFLIKE than Proofs, but, of course, they did not strike PROOFS at the San Francisco Mint in 1948 and 1950. These coins do not show up in a PCGS Pop Report, but certainly deserve to be. After all, why should an 1881(s) Morgan Dollar get a DMPL designation, but a 1950(s) Wash Quarter with mirrors so deep you could "shave in the coin" not be deserving of one? It would be nice if PCGS became even more collector oriented. Maybe DH will swing by Table 651 and I can show him the DMPL MS Roosie and Wash quarter

Wondercoin

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 1:52PM

ok, where were we....
My registry sets were the impetus to find 8s. I put the two toned 8s I had in my toned set, and for a long time I enjoyed a two coin lead (67.04) over my blast white set and a few others at 67.00, so the real goal now was to find a brilliant white 8 so I could move my blast white coin from the pack.
We put the best of the best in. I can't tell you how many coins we put in, to find a brilliant white p8 roosie.
Then we found the '64, and it wasn't a "shot", it was a "lock".
When it got "dinged" the first time, I was very surprised, downright angry, and needed an explanation.
It went into Rick.... but never got the nod.
This is where I have to give up the prologue, so you can find out some "real" info about the infamous and mysteriously unattainable pcgs ms68 silver roosie.
I apologize for having to break up the response. I hope it wasn't too frustrating for you.
Thanks again.

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 1:53PM

oops.

TomB · February 17, 2003 1:53PM

I would absolutely love to see DMPL Roosevelts and Washingtons. They must be so cool.

onlyroosies · February 17, 2003 1:53PM

Steve, I believe this is another white Roosie you and or Mitch tried over and over to cross. At least this
is what I was told when I bought the coin a year or so ago. Its a 1948 NGC MS68* ( see attached).

RegistryCoin · February 17, 2003 2:01PM

Ah, yes. Like I said, my memory...
You can see from the scan - dripping with luster, strong strike, virtually mark-free.
P8 silver roosies are the tallest of orders.
Mitch can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the strike on the p7 '64 rev. was a bit stronger.(?)

mnmcoin · February 17, 2003 2:05PM

From what I have heard from some of the top people in or around PCGS, there is basically an unwritten rule that brilliant white Roosevelts and Washingtons will never get a MS68 at PCGS. After looking at onlyroosies 1948, I would have to say that that unwritten rule is probably true..that is an amazing coin.

morris <><

onlyroosies · February 17, 2003 2:11PM

"OnlyRoosies, will agree that not a single one of his NGC MS68 BLAST WHITE dimes would qualify for the PCGS-MS68, applying the proper PCGS standard (i.e. not a mistake grade). "

Mitch, I agree with your statement that out of the 40 NGC MS68 dimes I have that less then a handfull would qualify under PCGS
standards to be in there holder... BUT!! I hope you are not implying that if I attempted to cross any and none crossed that they
are all a mistake grade and do not deserve to be called MS68. This is where I differ with you. Its just the diference between the
grading services and what they deem exceptible as an MS68. Yes I agree that PCGS is much stricter then NGC when grading
Roosies. As you stated this doesn't seem to be as much the case with Mercs. Why Roosies?? I don't know either.

Nick

onlyroosies · February 17, 2003 2:16PM

This is my only other White Roosie graded NGC MS68*W. 68 with the star and the W. I do not believe this coin would cross.

wondercoin · February 17, 2003 2:29PM

Nick: My reference was to your "BLAST WHITE" MS68 ROOSIES. I would never suggest your incredible toned NGC Roosie collection didn't contain MANY coins of PCGS-MS68 comparable quality

Fair? Wondercoin

Colorfulcoins · February 18, 2003 8:49AM

This is great - love to see all the recent Posts on a sorely "over-looked" series. This series is one where both beginning and advanced collectors can be challenged - not by necessarily completing a full 48-coin set but by assembling a "white" set or a colorfully "toned" set. As one that has spent the better part of 3 years working on a toned set, I can tell you there are still several white-ish coins in my toned set where I just cannot find an attractively toned coin - and its not a matter of money that prevents it!

It would be difficult to find another series where a "pop-top" MS67 coin with a PCGS pop of 75 or thereabouts can be had for $50 to $75.

..............actually, forget I said all of this - I don't want to drive the prices up - I still have a few more beauties to locate and I'd rather keep the prices down for a bit longer <grin>.

littlewicher · February 18, 2003 8:54AM

Wow, those are some beauties!! That 1947-D has almost no marks, and absolute gorgeous color! Yet, PCGS only gave it a 67. Is it time for PCGS to change their grading a little on the series, or would that be a devastation to the series?

RegistryCoin · February 18, 2003 9:15AM

I think its a devastation when ever grading standards are changed. High grade roosies should continue to enjoy their current "rarity" status forever. That's what standards are for. That's what makes silver roosies so much fun!

clackamas · February 18, 2003 11:05AM

What do you think of these? Have a shot?

RegistryCoin · February 18, 2003 11:21AM

Nice, lusterful. They beg to be picked up, tipped and turned under the light a bit.

Colorfulcoins · February 18, 2003 1:14PM

RC - haven't PCGS standards changed as far as grading Roosies over the last 5+ years? I've found it interesting to compare the older green-tag MS68's with the newer Blue-tag MS68's. Seems to me that PCGS HAS tightened down sowewhat - perhaps more so than the normal ups and down of grading. The most recent MS68's seem to be graded to a slightly higer standard - no more "Dark" coins, a more even and appealing look, perhaps better luster, and even a tick or two less overall. I am of couse, stereotyping. But I'm curious, when you had that killer set with all those MS68's, did you notice an difference? You did, after all, have more PCGS MS68's than anyone else and your opinion carries considerable weight.

In regards to MS67's, seems to me that PCGS has been reasonably consistent - I see new coins I disagree with and I see old coins I disagree with equally. Or perhaps its just my imagination - staring at them tiny coins just hurts my eyes <grin>.

Mitch, your opinion also solicited - have PCGS MS68 standards changed???

Inquiring minds want to know!

RegistryCoin · February 18, 2003 1:51PM

I'm happy say that I have not seen a change in standards in the last five years in silver roosies. I have seen pops rise, but think that is all due to enthusiasm for the series.
I have seen many of the original 8s. When I was last involved, I think there were about 20 8s, and I had 13 or 14 different ones.
It looks like there are almost 30 8s now representing about 20 date/mints.
I think given the number of new 67s, you may be right that an 8 is tougher to make. Since I haven't seen any 8s for a while now, no new ones, I really can't say, but I am very glad to hear that you think that pcgs has at least kept their strong standard, if not tightened it.

solid · February 18, 2003 2:02PM

Craig, that 47-S is one COOL BLUE DIME!!!

onlyroosies · February 18, 2003 2:10PM

Craig, I haven't been on the PCGS side of the Roosies for to long but do agree with your statement about PCGS seems
to be tighter today then ever before. I have 3 green taged PC 68 Roosies and 1 recently graded blue tag PC 68 roosie.
To me I can see a big difference between the older graded ones compaired to the newer graded one. Seems to me that
PCGS once added a point for even original toning, Put less emphasis on marks and discounted strike. I say this because
the 3 green tagged PC 8's I have are softly struck (no split bands) with several tics, But gorgeous toning. The one blue
tagged PC8 is well struck, Few if any marks and rim toned with original skin.

Steve, I agree whole heartedly that PCGS should keep the standards they have, Any variation from this or even a time
period of loosening will kill the series. Keep it tough, Keep it challenging, But most of all keep it consistent. I'm as far as
I can go on the NGC side, Thats why I'm over here now. Much more challenging, Especially since I see your name at the
top of the registry, Someone to look up to and a goal to beat.

Nick

wondercoin · February 18, 2003 2:25PM

"Mitch, your opinion also solicited - have PCGS MS68 standards changed???"

Having thought about the question for a little while now, I would have to answer "yes". IMHO, I think PCGS has tightened up perhaps 1/10 of a point in the past couple years. For example, I recently saw a few Roosies that should have graded PCGS-MS68, but did not. They are "liner" coins and will likely grade MS68 one day. They likely would have graded MS68 a decade ago. Why? Simple....

A decade or so ago, virtually no one cared about Roosie dimes and the enormous attention now spent on giving out an MS68 grade was simply not present back then. I have no doubt, this 1/10 of a point will swing the other way somewhere down the road and some MS68 coins will be graded.

Now, that isn't to say that there are not one or two MS68 coins presently in holders (graded in the past couple years) that are not lower end for the grade - there are. But, PCGS has been extremely consistent in its standard for Roosies throughout the years.

As I mentioned on another thread, at Long Beach I intend to display a remarkable DEEP MIRROR PROOFLIKE 1948(s) Roosie, just one coin from my Prooflike Roosie collection. These are really wonderful coins to behold and I hope some of you can stop by and take a look at the DMPL Roosie as well as a sample DMPL quarter from my collection (a 1950(s)). Also, if anyone has DMPL Roosies or Wash Quarters for sale, please bring them by the Table (651).

Wondercoin

onlyroosies · February 18, 2003 2:30PM

I definitely want to see the DMPL Roosie Mitch, I'll see you there.

RegistryCoin · February 18, 2003 3:00PM

Thanks, Nick. Acquiring 8s was never easy, and, from the numbers we see here, I don't think it's gotten, nor will get any easier.
To tell you the truth I was amazed to amass so many, especially with the furvor surrounding 8s at the time. But each one took tons of effort and time to nail down. It is not a function of enough money. It is a function of enough 8s. One could save and save and just not see one available for a very long time. They are rare.
Mitch is definately your best source. As was I, you are very lucky silver roosies are one of his favorite sets, as well as one of his specialties.
I think I left an extremely challenging and fun goal for you. I'll put this out there for you:
Although I would love to see myself in second position on the all-time list, especially displaced by a forum member, assuming consistant grading standards, I do not think it will happen in five years, ten years, perhaps into our waning years, or more.
I sincerely wish you the very best of luck in acheiving you goal.

wingedliberty · February 18, 2003 8:03PM

I agree that PCGS is the toughest on Roosies. I would say that NGC is more objective on toned Roosies,
and ANACS is probably the toughest on CAMS and DCAMS.

Brian.

Colorfulcoins · February 19, 2003 2:43AM

Great hearing from you RegistryCoin and Wondercoin........you guys have substantial depth in this series - particularily the high-end. Always learn something from these posts - and that in itself is a very positive thing. Looking froward to seeing those PL's Mitch at Long Beach.

wondercoin · February 19, 2003 6:09AM

Craig: Look forward to seeing you as well. I'll also bring a gem DMPL Mercury Dime date 1943(s), just to add a little flavor

Wondercoin

jom · February 19, 2003 1:49PM

Wonderman: When we meet next week I DEMAND you let me see a few of those PL's. Over the years I don't ever remember seeing one. You got any 1936-1942 Proof CAM's? Curious, as I've rarely seen any of those either....any denom....

jom

wondercoin · February 19, 2003 1:56PM

Jom: I placed a PCGS-PR65CAM nickel with a customer. Neat coin. I also have a neat heavy cameo Lincoln from 1942 (PCGS-PR67), but I haven't designated it yet - maybe for another Long Beach.

I have never seen a Wash quarter yet.

Look forward to meeting you and enjoying Lunch on Thursday

Wondercoin

JohnButlerfromLV · February 19, 2003 4:11PM

As a former grader for PCGS I can truly say that PCGS is way too tight on the MS68 grade for the Roosevelt dime. I would suspect there is a bias against the design of the Roosevelt dime because it is a modern coin. To me it is ridiculous to grade this series on a much tighter standard than the mercury dime which does in fact happen. Do not believe what the "official" position is because they are not graded the same as mercury dimes. A mercury dime can have up to several small ticks on the face and still receive a lofty 67 grade whereas a Roosevelt dime with the same marks at the same focul point will end up with a 65 or 66 grade. To me a Roosevelt dime in MS 68 should be an extremely common coin worth less than $50 for common dates. Perhaps someday PCGS will have seen a large enough quantity of Roosevelt dimes to be comfortable in grading the coins to a more realistic and acceptable standard.

John Butler
Sahara Coins
www.saharacoins.com
&
Vintage Paper Memories
www.vintagepapermemories.com

wondercoin · February 19, 2003 4:21PM

John: Good points - and the day that starts to happen, many of the current MS68 coins may upgrade to MS69, as some are simply spectacular!!

Wondercoin

doops · February 19, 2003 4:26PM

that 47d is wicked..

kranky · February 19, 2003 7:55PM

It does seem odd that there would be such a disparity in grading standards between Mercs and Roosies.

Great thread! I learned quite a bit.

Colorfulcoins · February 20, 2003 1:02PM

Doops, thanks for the compliment on the 47D - here's few more "colorfulcoins" - these tiny disc's do come colorfull indeed!

TomB · February 20, 2003 1:15PM

That '46-S and the second '46-P just about sucked the life out of me! They're gorgeous!

LucyBop · February 20, 2003 1:19PM

GASP! Colorfulcoins, all those dimes make my knees buckle and my head spin. I'm way gone Daddy-o!

baccaruda · February 20, 2003 2:53PM

craig those are awesome. i never thought i'd pay good money for a roosevelt dime but i got this one today and can't stop looking at it.

onlyroosies · February 21, 2003 2:14AM

Colorfulcoins · February 21, 2003 3:56AM

Nick, you had me worried there with the 56D.....I thought it was that UGLY NGC MS68 pop-1 dime......but its actually a cool looking PCGS MS67 I think - certainly looks to be MS67 from the obverse!

onlyroosies · February 21, 2003 5:26AM

Craig, No ugle roosies from me. An ugle NGC MS68!!! Is there such a thing. It must be pretty it says MS68
right on the holder.

The 56D above is an NGC MS67* back at NGC on regrade right now.

rainbowroosie · February 21, 2003 11:12AM

Nick/Craig,
Buy the coin not the holder....if you do, SOMEDAY you too will have a nice roosie set!!
rainbowroosie

Colorfulcoins · February 21, 2003 2:12PM

Bill, Bill, Bill........now you know Nick and I do buy the coin not the holder........we're just not 100% focused on rainbows - good thing for you or you'd have to pay even more for some of your beauties. I will say you've done good buying some of the lessor respected holdered coins - like that 47S PCI MS67 than turned into a NGC MS68*.....now that's the story on how to buy the coin not the holder. I won't divulge what you paid but we both know you done good! Very good! So I guess you are entitled to "pick on" poor Nick and I after all <grin>.

Keep in mind its our turn at Long Beach to pick and choose - we'll send you pics of our great finds (regardless of the holder).

PCGS Roosevelt Dimes

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