Stung by PCGS - The dreaded AU58

Blade

Hi folks,
I bought a very PQ 1849 G$1 that was graded MS62 by NGC. I thought it had a shot at MS63 due to awesome luster. Since all of my gold is in PCGS holders I decided to crack it and send it to PCGS. At a minimum, I figured I would get the 62 back. I've cracked several NGC coins and always gotten back same grade or higher.

Well, I've submitted about 10 cracked coins so far, and it was about time I got nailed with an AU58. The G$1 is below (I know it is tough to see luster breaks in a scan, but it looks all there to me).

I am friends with a dealer that sends many coins to NGC. Since I have high resolution scans in the original NGC holder, he can get it reholdered for me as a 62. Before I do that, should I give PCGS another try? How many of you have sent PCGS coins that they graded AU58 and had a return to a MS holder?





Edited to fix image

K6AZ

Looks like another fine example of PCGS current oppresive grading. Sorry, I just don't see the rub that should be on this coin. I would resubmit it to NGC as raw and you may get that 63.

AbesNeighbor

I can only judge this by the way they grade $2 1/2 Indians... The coin appears to have a great strike a nd luster... It also appears to have too many "Hits" and scratches for an MS Grade...My opinion only and worth what it costs.

spinaker2000

send it to Anacs, then to PCGS as a crossover. Anacs has a gold special on now. 9 coins, in 9 days, $9 per coin.

MadMarty

I know all about the dreaded AU58...
8 60081455 1892 S$1 AU58

banknote1

I have heard send your gold to NGC. I think IMO your coin proves this statement! It is impossible to grade a coin from a photo, but this coin looks every bit Unc. Great lustre and I can't see any wear at all. The coin does have a few hairlines and ticks, but that would fit a MS62 grade!!

Blade

Abes,
MS grade is not determined by the number of hits or scratches. A completely abused coin riddled with hits (I've seen them) would grade MS60. A beautiful coin with no hits, full strike, full luster, dazzling eye appeal (think MS68) but just a hint of wear on the high points would grade out AU58.

Remember also that this is a coin only 13mm in diameter, the smallest US coin ever minted. My images are high resolution and about the equivalent of a 10X loupe. If you look at this without the aid of a super close-up, it looks mighty fine. I've looked at over 100 of these trying to find a PQ MS62. They usually have way more hits and luster breaks at that grade.

K6AZ

Tom, what is your take on it since you can see it in person? I am just not seeing the wear that would account for an AU58 grade.

nwcs

Could it be the field in front of the bust and to the top of it? Looks dark and I've seen this as a consistent thing in the AU58s I've gotten. Perhaps that, to them, is very light field wear?

Blade

NWCS,
Could be, but the coin was shipped yesterday so I'm still working off the scans and can't look at it first hand. I've seen that type of field discoloration on other gold pieces. It will keep you out of an MS64, but I've seen 62's & 63's with that type of look.

TomB

My take on NGC vs PCGS grading of gold coins, and it is a very limited take, is that of the ten NGC gold coins I sent in for crossover to PCGS. Six came back the same grade and four came back one grade higher. Granted, I am very picky, but, I was surprised.

Blade

Baseball, the price goes from ~$250 to $500, so it is a decent jump. MS63 goes to a whopping $1,500, thus my interst in at least trying. It would be low grade for a 63, but I thought it was worth a shot.

Like I said, this is my 10th or so cross from NGC and out of 4 gold coins, the other 3 made the grade. Maybe I just got a grumpy grader.

Blade

Tom,
Did you cross them in the NGC plastic or crack them out?

TomB

I crossed them in the plastic. I don't normally crack coins out when I try for a crossover because almost all the coins I deal with are intensely toned and I don't want to lose the "insurance" of having them already slabbed should PCGS deem them not market acceptable.

rainbowroosie

Good advice from TomB.

Trime

Blade,
I am going to take the "dreaded low road" and say that this coin has a few problems. I am not sure it desreves a circulated status ( requires an in hand review) but it is not a MS63 by a margin. If it does not have the circulated status, I would be comfotable with an MS 61 grade.
Hope I am wrong!

MastaHanky

Ah, the good ol' AU58. Dreaded by the submitter, loved by the buyer!

jom

<< <i>A completely abused coin riddled with hits (I've seen them) would grade MS60. >>



That is not quite true. It depends on the type of hits we are talking about. There are "bag marks" which come from the mint production and there are circulation hits. Different animal.

Another thing, Blade: Do you intend to sell the coin any time soon? If NOT, why bother sending it in again? Why waste the money? The coin is in the holder you like so why bother?



<< <i>Ah, the good ol' AU58. Dreaded by the submitter, loved by the buyer! >>



Haha! Ain't that the truth!

jom

sadysta1

I think that there is one danger associated with crakout that everyone is overlooking - USPS. When you crack the coin and put it in 2x2 you are at the mercy of post office. Your package is being constantly moved, tossed etc. It is possible that some rubbing friction can develop due to that.

Barry

I wouldn't resend to PCGS. Give the $30 to charity, instead. PCGS has a helluva business plan, lowballing grades to encourage resubmissions. I subscribe to the "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" model.

Blade

Barry,
Really good point. I'll probably keep it in the holder at least until I get my free 4 submissions to PCGS in July. Who knows, maybe next quarter's freebie will be Gold dollars.

Jom - I am not selling soon, so there is no hurry in attempting to remedy the situation.

sadysta1

Blade - actually my 1834 half dime went from PCGS AU58 to NGC MS62. I do nort know much about gold but this coin does not look better than 62.

eagle7

The coin is an obvious au58. Send it back to NGC, if your friend can get them to grade it back as an ms62. If you sent the coin raw to NGC right now, it would grade au58 with them also. Sorry!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Blade

This coin I grade AU 62.Great luster but a little rub on the wing of the nose,high points of the hair and the protrusion of the neck.
There is a fine line between cabinet friction and light circulation.There is way too much chatter for an ms 63 grade.You took a gamble and lost.I would try for an NGC ms 62.

Stewart

Barry

Tom,
The other thing you, and everyone, should consider when slabbing a raw coin (or playing crack out games) is why are you slabbing it and what are your plans for the coin. If you plan on keeping it for a while, (re)slab it only for authentication purposes, not for grading. Why? Just like the coin markets themselves have ups and downs, so do the grading companies. Now, they have tightened. Over the last 5 years, prior to recently, they've gone through "gradeflation." Ten years ago, NGC coins carried a premium over PCGS coins, etc., etc.

If you plan on selling in the near term, by all means, do what is best to maximize the coins value. OTOH, nobody knows what the state of grading services will be, in terms of tightness, value, who are the big players, etc. in 5-10 years, or longer.

BillJones

Going by your pictures, I'd say that AU-58 might be the correct grade. The sad truth is that a lot of MS-61 and 62 coins are AU-58s ("sliders") with good eye appeal. Both services might call them MS-61 or 62 or AU-58 depending upon their whim.

For my own collection and for my business I'd never break anything out of a major brand name holder just because I wanted the coin to be in another brand of holder. The only time I would crack something would be if I thought the piece would upgrade.

This is one more example of how slavish brand loyalty can cost you money.

jom

<< <i>Going by your pictures, I'd say that AU-58 might be the correct grade. The sad truth is that a lot of MS-61 and 62 coins are AU-58s ("sliders") with good eye appeal. Both services might call them MS-61 or 62 or AU-58 depending upon their wim. >>



I think what you mean by "whim" is that they can't decide whether to technically grade or market grade. That is what it really comes down to.

I collect $5 and $2.5 Indians and I see that a lot where it's really AU but it's in a 61 or 62 holder. In terms of gradeflation let's just say it's an early 90s AU coin as opposed to a early 2000s MS coin. lol

jom

Blade

Thanks folks. I just chalk this up to a lesson learned that will ultimately cost me $30 in PCGS grading fees and another in NGC fees to get it back into a 62 holder. It makes sense to get it back into an MS holder since that will hold the most value. Whether it is really AU or MS cannot be effectively debated unless you look at the coin.

I can tell you that I am pretty close to the comfort level of having both PCGS and NGC coins in my collection. I started all PCGS, and now have 20% NGC, and that % is growing. I'm not willing to let the PCGS set registry dictate my purchase decisions any longer. If I finds the tug toward PCGS continues to be too strong, I will delist my registry set until PCGS develops an effective way to recognize NGC coins. I like TDN's proposal that if a coin does not cross, it is assigned a PCGS grade for registry purposes.

jom

On the registry: I made an effort to do this but coins I had broken out of PCGS holders years ago were later bodybagged for various reasons. Even though PCGS took them back (only after I presented the old label) and graded them the way they were before. This sort of soured me on the whole process so now I just don't give a damn. Buy what you like and don't pay too much attention to the holder...use it as a guide or a beginning point....and authentication...which is the most important, IMO.

jom