Thanks... or NOT for the entertainment!
tracker
Posts: 52
For all who participated in the "Witch Hunt", I'd like to thank you for the hours of free
entertainment you provided me. Yes, even you Mr. Swimmer! Every "Witch Hunt" needs
an alleged witch and you played the part well, although I understand not by choice.
By mere circumstantial evidence Mr. Swimmer was brought to Forum trial and prosecuted
to the fullest extent. The superb intimidation tactics, restructuring of redundant
questioning, background investigation... hey, you even lured Mr. Swimmer into the
interrogation room in an attempt to defend himself! I wonder how many of you "Cop
Wannabees” were sitting if front of your monitors with a bar of soap in a sock, rocking
back and forth muttering "kill, kill, kill"? For the defenders of Mr. Swimmer (or should he now be referred to as; "Witch #1").... Bravo!
Let's see.... FACT:
The coin counting machines of yesterday spewed out hundred of thousands of coins in the
exact same manner. However unlikely it is that two coins of the same year have "near
identical" or "extremely similar" marks, it is not an impossibility.
Fact:
Major dealers are supposedly known (by a certain few) to be doing far worse than Mr.
Swimmer is alleged to have done for a lot more $ and no one is intimidating the
knowledgeable people to confess what they know. (oh, I get it, the lawsuit thing).
Fact:
Obviously AT'D slabbed coins are shown-off in the forums regularly, but no one
(including myself) ever calls them for what they are or asks the owners how he/she got
that AT'D coin in a top service holder. (must be the lawsuit thing).
Fact:
If Mr. Swimmers' coins were in top service holders, this "Witch Hunt" would have never
taken place.
Fact:
I have never seen on the forums where someone interfered with a "Big Name" dealers'
eBay auctions. (oh yeah, the lawsuit thing again).
Fact:
The desire to keep the hobby of coin collecting "pure" is admirable. To do this by any
means is vigilantism.
Fact:
The point as to whether Mr. Swimmer was being deceitful really became moot for me
once the assassination of his character came into play. (Obviously the judge ruled in favor
of the “Prior Acts” admission). Dang, I was only in the bathroom for a minute. I wanted
to see the look on the defense attorneys’ face!
Fact:
Some forum members' icons look suspiciously like, hmm... AT'D coins! LOL
Once again, thanks for the entertainment at someone else’s expense... but y’all need some
acting lessons (amongst other things).
entertainment you provided me. Yes, even you Mr. Swimmer! Every "Witch Hunt" needs
an alleged witch and you played the part well, although I understand not by choice.
By mere circumstantial evidence Mr. Swimmer was brought to Forum trial and prosecuted
to the fullest extent. The superb intimidation tactics, restructuring of redundant
questioning, background investigation... hey, you even lured Mr. Swimmer into the
interrogation room in an attempt to defend himself! I wonder how many of you "Cop
Wannabees” were sitting if front of your monitors with a bar of soap in a sock, rocking
back and forth muttering "kill, kill, kill"? For the defenders of Mr. Swimmer (or should he now be referred to as; "Witch #1").... Bravo!
Let's see.... FACT:
The coin counting machines of yesterday spewed out hundred of thousands of coins in the
exact same manner. However unlikely it is that two coins of the same year have "near
identical" or "extremely similar" marks, it is not an impossibility.
Fact:
Major dealers are supposedly known (by a certain few) to be doing far worse than Mr.
Swimmer is alleged to have done for a lot more $ and no one is intimidating the
knowledgeable people to confess what they know. (oh, I get it, the lawsuit thing).
Fact:
Obviously AT'D slabbed coins are shown-off in the forums regularly, but no one
(including myself) ever calls them for what they are or asks the owners how he/she got
that AT'D coin in a top service holder. (must be the lawsuit thing).
Fact:
If Mr. Swimmers' coins were in top service holders, this "Witch Hunt" would have never
taken place.
Fact:
I have never seen on the forums where someone interfered with a "Big Name" dealers'
eBay auctions. (oh yeah, the lawsuit thing again).
Fact:
The desire to keep the hobby of coin collecting "pure" is admirable. To do this by any
means is vigilantism.
Fact:
The point as to whether Mr. Swimmer was being deceitful really became moot for me
once the assassination of his character came into play. (Obviously the judge ruled in favor
of the “Prior Acts” admission). Dang, I was only in the bathroom for a minute. I wanted
to see the look on the defense attorneys’ face!
Fact:
Some forum members' icons look suspiciously like, hmm... AT'D coins! LOL
Once again, thanks for the entertainment at someone else’s expense... but y’all need some
acting lessons (amongst other things).
tracker
0
Comments
If you go after the coin doctors, what's next. Go after ACG and others for grading crappy coins? Go after sellers who can't grade coins correctly? We were all newbies once and all got burned, be it by a coin dealer, e-bay seller or at a coin show. We live and learn...
That's it. I need to go and check on my potatos!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
nothing new under the sun!
K S
Since you joined the forum in Oct 2001, perhaps you witnessed the 'witch hunt' I'm about to relate. However, this one had a dramatically different outcome and for dramatically different reasons....mainly one of truth versus lies.
I was on the forum one day when a thread started about an artifically toned coin being offered on ebay. In his description, the owner did not state that the coin was artifically toned. Several forum members wrote him telling he was selling an AT'd coin. If I remember correctly, the owner claimed he didn't even know what an AT coin was.
I looked at his auction and this particular coin was AT all right....you could have spotted it from a mile away.
Well, the heat continued. Within a short while someone posted a comment that the guy had to be lying because anyone in the bullion business would certainly know an AT'd coin when they saw one. I thougt that was an outrageous conclusion for anyone to draw.
I contacted the guy and asked him about the coin. He didn't tell me that it was 'natural' or 'genuine' or had to be real because it was out of his grandpa's toned collection. Quite the contrary, he told me that he'd bought the coin at a show from a guy that had a case full of them and that he didn't have a clue what he was doing. But one thing was evident, he loved toned coins and wanted to participate in the market.
Working with him, I did what I could to educate him about the market and he quickly understood why artificially toned coins (and those that marketed them to the unwitting) were so despised by so many collectors.
He joined the boards, asked questions, answered questions (and answered them honestly) and was soon accepted for what he is....a fine, honest gentleman and an avid fan of toned coins. I'm very proud to call him a good friend of mine and highly recommend him to anyone on the boards. His name is Bryan Orsborn of Texas Bullion Traders and he goes by Tonekiller here.
Have you seen any differences in what happened this weekend versus the events surrounding Bryan's introduction to the boards?
I too disagree with some of what happened over the weekend.
However, based on everything I saw, including his own words to all of us on this board, the ebay seller to whom you refer did nothing but try play games with words...and even with pictures. Why should I or anyone else come to his rescue?
If you wish to defend him, that's your right and I support you. But I for one will not defend his behavior.
Coin doctors are a cancer on this hobby and I think we should all do what we can to cure the illness. Perhaps a better thread subject would be just how this can be accomplished.
As for my icon, it's one of the most spectacular toned coins I've ever seen, and while this one has provenance, I can assure you it's not from grandpa's hoard.
Thanks for posting!
GSAGUY
Now, before you all flame on me, let's all understand I didn't like the looks of those coins and it certainly APPEARS he manipulated those pics after receiving some e-mails from Members of this Forum. Though I am certainly not an expert on such.
What Members say here on this Forum is certainly fine with me. However, when Members take it upon themselves to contact the bidders on an auction and cause the seller to end his auction is WRONG. I deplore it. When Members attack the man personally with e-mail, I deplore it. When Members attack his character, I deplore it. Say what you want, but you had no FACTS. You thought you knew this, you were confident in that, but you did NOT have the coins in front of you. Period. You didn't KNOW the history of the coins. Period. This was surely coin vigilantism at its very worst.
I hope Ebay investigates the situation. After contacting the bidders on the auction and upon finding that Dragon did contact them with all kinds of innuendo, immediately NARU's him. As a seller on Ebay, I'm quite confident that kind of action could be repeated against any seller and I find it dangerous. It is an absolute attack on Ebay's business model and future sales of any seller. Just my opinion.
I neither ran to the defense nor persecuted Mr. Swimmer and I am not here to defend him. I sat near the jury box and witnessed appauling behavior (IMHO) on the part of many forum members. Honestly, I myself would not contemplate a purchase of any of Mr. Swimmers' coins. However, I would not be quick to jump on the bandwagon and pass judgement with circumstantial evidence at best. Then, even if the accused/tried were to be found guilty, who if anyone on this forum has the authority to pronounce sentence? The question of deceitfullness on Mr. Swimmers' part lost all substance (with me) when the wolves came in for the kill. It's that simple.
You state that the coins are not from his Grandfathers' collection. I take it you are related to Mr. Swimmer... or you knew his Grandfather personally? Come on now... Only Mr. Swimmer knows the truth. Maybe his Grandfather was duped? Anything is possible. You compare Mr. Swimmers' situation with TBT and you whole heartedly believe TBT had not a clue or suspicion that his offerings were AT'D? Ok, you are entitled to believe whatever you want. By the way, whatever happened to that case of coins they/he purchased? There is really no sense in rehashing the past and I'm not looking for a battle. By the way... Nice plug for TBT. Tonekiller should be proud to have you as a friend. Ok, I have to go. Be back later to see if my icon is burning. LOL
Many ebay sellers use the old 'estate sale', 'grandpa's collection', 'just discovered hoard', etc as a sales ploy. While distasteful, I suspect that most folks recognize it for what it is....a sales ploy.
In the case of this weekend's witch, I wouldn't doubt that for a minute that he did indeed inherit a group of coins from his grandfather.
But where he really stepped in it was when he bought a white coin off of ebay in January, and it showed up two weeks later for sale on his site artificially toned...and he stated in the auction that this was another coin from grandpa's toned coin collection. I think a reasonable person would have a legitimate question about that coin originating from grandpa's toned collection. Wouldn't you?
Perhaps he made a mistake....sure, let's give him the benefit of the doubt...he forgot he'd bought that piece just a week before. But how did the coin go from white to dramatically toned in two weeks? To add insult to injury, when a forum member pointed out the before and after work, he started manipulating the scans. Nothing to hide? You tell me.
<<Come on now... Only Mr. Swimmer knows the truth.>>
Exactly!!! But time after time he chose to run at a 180 from the truth. His decision, not mine, not yours, HIS.
Our weekend witch was judged in the court of public opinion. Like it or not, we all are every time we post to this forum, everytime we're in public settings, in front of co-workers, whatever. It can't be avoided. But what can be avoided in most cases is pouring gasoline on yourself when you're immersed in flames in the hot seat.
As for TBT, he didn't have a case of AT'd coins, the fellow that sold him those few pieces did. He later sold the coins on ebay and at shows but prominently stated that the coins had been artifically toned. As for the value of my friendship, he might take exception to the comment.
Tracker, no battle here. All you've done is express your opinion and you have every right to do so. We can agree to disagree and still be friends.
Thanks for the post.
GSAGUY
Seems to me the attitude of some of you here is that you know how to tell a good coin from a bad coin, so let's have all these nice, non-offensive threads about what coin we bought yesterday and what we like to collect. That is fine, but I am going to tell you AT/Counterfeit/Altered coins are a serious problem and those of you who don't have the courage to stand up against it are contributing to the problem. Alan Swimmer deserved to be reamed for what he is doing to the hobby.
Why are you blaming Swimmer instead of the buyer? Is it MY responsibility to see that any buyer of mine has the ability to accurately grade a coin? By what definition, and to what standard?
Swimmer toned some coins. He put them up for auction in a forum where rule #1 is Caveat Emptor. He did not say that they were original, nor that they were AT. He got bids (in line with the value of white samples of the coins he was selling). Then he got railed. He broke no laws, but was the victim of interference with commerce by a member of this forum. Yeah...its hard to see how ANYONE could see ANYTHING wrong with what happened here.
I have a collection of AT coins. I guess I'm just a piece of scum, contributing to the problem? Awfully self-righteous of you to say that, don't you think?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>He did not say that they were original, nor that they were AT. >>
Ah, but he DID say they were original and that he did NOT artificially tone them. He very clearly indicated that in response to my eMail question asking him how he artificially toned them.
Russ, NCNE
Only problem I saw was that in addition to the toned coins, the seller had previously sold a retooled Barber half dollar and made no mention of it. So he either didn't know, or has a pattern of selling coins without disclosing material facts that WILL limit the coins real value upon resell.
Either way for me it is a seller I would never deal with. First off I don't trust that he knows his Head from his arse, or that he deceives by intention. Whichever it is, it is a problem waiting to happen.
Tyler
Very interesting statement DCAMFranklin considering you are typically one of the first responders to any type of controversial or accusatory thread with comments like: "tell us who this slimeball is" ......... remember???
I salute you for your 99% courage in uncovering and reporting to this board your find.
I have known you to be an outstanding member of this board for a great deal of time.
What I don't see (1%) of courage, in you admitting that you did contact bidders and know that this was wrong.
General note here: I see this board attacking individual EBAY sellers with abandon. Is it because they are an easy target? What I don't see often, is the beating up of the Dealers that are known scummers and dealers that utilizedeceptive practices. Is that because some might be among us, or because they are not such easy targets diue to thier depth and wealth?
Just a thought.
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
I copied and pasted this from the other thread. There's just too much to keep up with
DCAM,
I have a similar feeling, and have taken a massive amount of grief over it. What bothers me is that 99% of what Swimmer is being crucified over arose AFTER the initial attack from this forum. His listings were (in my opinion) accurate and not misleading, though possibly not entirely honest. It seems to me that regardless, someone didn't think he should be selling what appear to be AT coins at all. So, the frenzy began, and he was hunted, then trapped, then slowly made to suffer as he reacted (often poorly) to attacks from all sides. Russ keeps talking about his email, which he received after the initial attack. Others point to his use of "Genuine" and Guaranteed," again, inserted after the attack. Then there are the obviously manipulated pictures, after the attack (he really made a poor decision here).
But go back to the beginning. Someone (I don't recall, and don't care) saw a coin they thought was AT (and they will never know for certain). So, they felt the need to destroy the seller, even though he really didn't portray the coin as genuine or naturally toned. They did a swell job of that. Alan tells me his coin selling days are over. That it isn't worth it, that he will focus on his computer sales and hope the hounds will leave him alone. I told him not to count on it, as what I'd seen relating to his treatment over his coins was nothing short of fanatical. The reaction honestly amazes me, and I get a glimmer of understanding about "leading the sheep to slaughter."
Swimmer wasn't innocent, but he didn't deserve this. And no one had any right or responsibility to interfere as they did. Like everyone here, I have an opinion. And I've seen nothing to change mine, and loads to reinforce it. I've been called a moron, a scumbag, and told that I'm part of the problem, that I'm hurting the hobby, all because I don't agree with the way this was handled, or more accurately, if this was the proper situation to even address. I've even been accused of being a Morgan Docotr myself, which would be cool...if I owned any Morgans
Woe is me. I'm a bad collector, and a worse person.
I'm off to cook up some more Morgans (those are the ones with the portrait of Elaine Benes on the obverse, right?). And these will get slabbed by PCGS (I'm getting VERY good!)
Let loose the hounds of hell!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman