I've got a 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent I'd like to sell on ebay. Dwood?
gsaguy
Posts: 2,425 ✭
Would I be deceiving bidders, or possibly even commiting fraud if I 'forgot' to mention that I had added the S?
I am having more senior moments these days.
GSAGUY
Edited to add verbs.
I am having more senior moments these days.
GSAGUY
Edited to add verbs.
0
Comments
<< <i>Would I be deceiving bidders, or possibly even commiting fraud if I 'forgot' to mention that I had added the S? I am more senior moments these days. GSAGUY >>
ONLY if you also stored it in a sulfur soaked cardboard holder for the last six weeks first.
peacockcoins
As for selling something that you know is no good to anyone but the person who sold it to you - That's just plain unethical.
GSAGUY
Are you specifically representing the coin as original?
I wouldn't buy it any way for two reasons:
1. I would never buy a frequetnly faked coin without first holding it in my hand (and trust me, you aren't going to get a forgered SVDB by me).
2. I only buy from reputable dealers.
Don't shoot the messenger. After all, you asked.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Dwoods, well, a few folks have e-mailed me and asked if the coin was authentic. Of course it is!!! It's a real Lincoln cent. And the S that I added came off of a real Lincoln cent as well. Do you mean something else? I don't understand....I'm just a little guy trying to sell a few coins on ebay.
IrishMike, I do have some scans but they're not too clear. Let me see what 'magic' I can work and then I'll send them your way.
GSAGUY
I'm not interested in anything you have, but thank you so much for the offer
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
I don't believe the following was the case with Mr. Swimmer, however, it sure could be in the next instance. Isn't it possible for someone's grandfather to buy a doctored coin, without the knowledge to realize it? Isn't it possible for that someone's grandfather to die, without EVER discovering the work? Upon his grandfather's death, the novice grandson decides to sell the coins, including the doctored ones, on Ebay. How DARE some stranger send an e-mail implying that the highly respected grandfather would be so ignorant as to buy a doctored coin?? Personally, I can assure you my initial reaction would not be timid in such an instance. Well now.......this obnoxious seller has actually responded with disdain. How dare he?? Well..... we'll just teach him. We will take it upon ourselves to contact the bidders on his auctions to let them know just how much of a scumbag he really is. Not only that, we'll bombard him with e-mails letting him know how much WE know, how little he knows, how sorry his coins are and that we intend to notify Ebay!
Let's not forget there is a presumption of innocence. I know it seems really strange to some, but that even applies to sellers on Ebay.
Edited for spelling.
<< <i>Edited to add verbs. >>
Crusty Old Boss to Beautiful Secretary - "...And put in lots of verbs, make me sound important"
Guys, I've peeked in and out of these threads in the last couple of days and I'm really not interested in getting into the cross fire. All I want to say is that I've spoken to GSAGUY and I've done business with him, and he's a genuinely good guy. I met Dwood in person this weekend and I feel that I'm a good judge of character (I'm and HR manager remember?) and I feel that he's a genuinely good guy. So please - let's keep these facts in mind as you banter back and forth.
Let the barage begin again...
Frank
I have a similar feeling, and have taken a massive amount of grief over it. What bothers me is that 99% of what Swimmer is being crucified over arose AFTER the initial attack from this forum. His listings were (in my opinion) accurate and not misleading, though possibly not entirely honest. It seems to me that regardless, someone didn't think he should be selling what appear to be AT coins at all. So, the frenzy began, and he was hunted, then trapped, then slowly made to suffer as he reacted (often poorly) to attacks from all sides. Russ keeps talking about his email, which he received after the initial attack. Others point to his use of "Genuine" and Guaranteed," again, inserted after the attack. Then there are the obviously manipulated pictures, after the attack (he really made a poor decision here).
But go back to the beginning. Someone (I don't recall, and don't care) saw a coin they thought was AT (and they will never know for certain). So, they felt the need to destroy the seller, even though he really didn't portray the coin as genuine or naturally toned. They did a swell job of that. Alan tells me his coin selling days are over. That it isn't worth it, that he will focus on his computer sales and hope the hounds will leave him alone. I told him not to count on it, as what I'd seen relating to his treatment over his coins was nothing short of fanatical. The reaction honestly amazes me, and I get a glimmer of understanding about "leading the sheep to slaughter."
Swimmer wasn't innocent, but he didn't deserve this. And no one had any right or responsibility to interfere as they did. Like everyone here, I have an opinion. And I've seen nothing to change mine, and loads to reinforce it. I've been called a moron, a scumbag, and told that I'm part of the problem, that I'm hurting the hobby, all because I don't agree with the way this was handled, or more accurately, if this was the proper situation to even address. I've even been accused of being a Morgan Docotr myself, which would be cool...if I owned any Morgans
Woe is me. I'm a bad collector, and a worse person.
I'm off to cook up some more Morgans (those are the ones with the portrait of Elaine Benes on the obverse, right?). And these will get slabbed by PCGS
Let loose the hounds of hell!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
DCAM, sure, all the things you mention COULD happen.
But I go back to main point. A certain weekend victim, at every turn, chose to lie and manipulate instead of just telling the truth. Gosh, wouldn't that have been much easier?
Okay, back to the point of my thread.
Let's say you, or Dwood looked at my scan of my 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent on ebay and could tell it was an obvious fake. If you wrote me and asked about it and I said, "oh no, it's original, natural, authentic, from grandma's hoard", whatever.....what would you think? Probably one of two things. 1) I don't know what I'm talking about or 2) I'm lying to you. THAT is exactly what I thought of our buddy when I saw his e-mail response to Russ about the toning on his coins.
It was only later that it became evident that our buddy knew EXACTLY what was being asked of him and was indeed selling artifically toned coins on ebay.
If a guy wants to artificially tone coins and make that clear when he sells them, I may not like it, but I can't really say he's doing anything devious. If he's artificially toning coins and FORGETTING that fact in his descriptions, I believe his intent is to rip someone off.
I'll now say it again, I BELIEVE THAT COIN DOCTORS ARE A CANCER ON THIS HOBBY! I WANT TO SEE THEM STOP WHAT THEY'RE DOING....IT'S CALLED FRAUD.
Pie in the sky dreaming, perhaps.
Finally, please, all, this thread asked a rhetorical question. I don't own a 1909-S VDB and I'm not a coin doctor, not even a nurse, not even a technician. Promise.
GSAGUY
I don't buy from coin doctors, and you probably don't sell to coin doctors, so it looks like we're both out of luck!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
If it is accepted that the toned 1882-S Morgan that was bought as a bright white coin on ebay last month is the same coin that was in the auction that was closed yesterday then we can conclude that the coin was toned in the possession of Mr. Swimmer. We might also conclude that Mr. Swimmer knowingly accelerated the toning. I don't know that anyone is disputing that point. There is a point that several members are arguing, though, that says Mr. Swimmer never portrayed the coin as not being AT and, therefore, he had fulfilled all his obligations of disclosure to any bidders. If that is how someone reads those events then that is fair enough. If that is the case, though, how does one justify this statement from Mr. Swimmer's auction of that now toned coin-
<< <i>Full disclosure as to an items good and bad points. >>
Call me naive, but, to me, that statement, directly from the auction in question, would indicate that everything there was to tell about that coin was already spelled out. Since I would consider AT one of the "bad points" a coin could have, I would have expected a mention of it in the auction. Perhaps I am missing something?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I really don't like "S" ever since Miss Fogie in sixth grade used to grade all my composition papers with an "S" which she said stood for stupid. Since you are adding letters, can you do letters other than S or possibly more than one letter?
With all due respect, I think you're reading it the way you would like to interpret it. I read the exact same section, and my impression was basically "I'll tell you everything I know about the coin, just ask." Honestly, that is how I interpreted it. Also, I think you have to look at the context in which "Full Disclosure" is used. To me, it is clear that Mr. Swimmer was NOT using "Full Disclosure" in a legal sense, otherwise he wouldn't have used the qualifiers "good" and "bad" (which to my knowledge are not legal terms with respect to numismatics.
We've had some exchange in PMs. Having just posted a repsonse to K6AZ Here, I think it might better convey some of my concerns better than I have to date. (I have others concerns as well, and I agree that the coins are likely AT and probably the same (in the instance we discussed so profusely) but I cannot say so with 100% certainty, and neither can anyone here. The ONLY person who can do so is Alan Swimmer).
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
GSAGUY
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
For Pete's sake, a forum member DID ASK and the guy played totally dumb, said the coin's color was real, and right out of grandpa's toned collection.
Let's drop it and help O.J. look for Nicole's killer.
GSAGUY
Lets assume your interpretation (the literal, legal one) is correct. The auction closes, the high bidder is disatisfied with the coin, and calls Alan. Alan discloses some information which he hadn't before (the coin is definitely AT) stating that "I'm sorry. I assumed you knew at this price that it was likely AT, and that you had factored that into your bid." Next, the buyer asks for a refund and Alan says "Sure! No problem, and I'm sorry. Its right there in my auction. Send it back, and I'll refund your payment, minus shipping."
Wouldn't that satisfy any liability Alan assumed? What are the damages to the seller (perhaps the shipping fees)?
This is one of my points of concern. Alan was never given this opportunity, because some didn't think he deserved it.
Another concern I have is that most apparently knew the coin was likely AT, as the bids on almost all of his auctions were at or below "one-off" grade prices (at, or one point less in grade) for UNTONED examples.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Thanks!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
My wife keeps calling it a skunk, but I'm convinced it's a cat.
Could ANYONE on this forum figure out a way to make my new pet smell like roses and convince my wife that it really is a cat?
GSAGUY
Edited again to add verbs.
<< <i>most apparently knew the coin was likely AT, as the bids on almost all of his auctions were at or below "one-off" grade prices (at, or one point less in grade) for UNTONED examples >>
and that is actually an excellent observation, if true. Now, I don't know if it's true and I don't know if it's not true. So, I went back to ebay to look. This is what I did-
1)I looked at all of Mr. Swimmer's closed auctions still on the ebay record, this is 175 auctions.
2)Only those auctions for silver dollars were examined as some were for computer parts and others for other denominations and all the fuss about these coins was over the silver dollars.
3)Relevent information that Mr. Swimmer explicitly wrote, if any, was made note of.
4)If there was still an image it was looked at and made note of.
5)Final selling price was recorded and compared to Greysheet bid prices using the grade stipulated in the auction and where the coin sold.
6)All prices were rounded using scientific/engineering principle.
7)If the term "BU" was used I assumed MS63 and I think this is reasonable.
8)I determined if the coin sold below bid, at bid or over bid.
9)GF is written to denote from grandfather's collection.
10)I stopped when the 1882-S auction was closed.
11)These parameters were assigned before I looked at any auctions.
12)The results are very long so I did not type them all out.
Results-
1)One auction that closed well under Greysheet.
2)Two auctions that closed slightly under Greysheet.
3)Eighteen auctions that closed essentially at Greysheet.
4)Eight auctions that closed slightly over Greysheet.
5)Fortyseven auctions that closed well over Greysheet.
6)It was astounding how much over Greysheet many of these auctions closed!
7)Every picture that remained, there weren't many, looked like an AT coin.
8)Many coins were explicitly described as either "natural" or from GF or both.
Therefore, I cannot accept at all the idea that the coins were closing at some sort of discount because people who were bidding knew they were AT. Additionally, those who were bidding likely did not know they were AT, therefore, they would not subsequently ask to return the coins.
I have the actual data tabulated but it is much too long to write in this thread. If you believe there is an error in my analysis I invite you to do your own research into the selling prices and logically dispute it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
A very interesting and scientific analysis.
Just for the record, the night all this started, I looked at many of his past auctions. EVERY closed auction I looked at had a picture and EVERY one I saw looked AT'd to me (my opinion).
However, he quickly yanked the pictures once all this started. His reason? Only he can say....and based on the past record, I'm not so sure I'd believe him.
Thanks for that effort.
GSAGUY
Please Dear GOD! Make it stop!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson