Yet another AT Doctor, this one even more blatant
K6AZ
Posts: 9,295 ✭
Well, just about the time I figured the aswimmer business was done with, I start looking around eBay and find one even more blatant! Now I want to be clear here, please do not attempt to contact any of his bidders. Let's keep it here, and hopefully anyone who may be inclined to bid on his stuff will eventually gravitate here. Here are just a few auctions, if you poke around you will find plenty.
1879-S "Monster Toned"
1889 "Monster Toned"
1921-S "Monster Toned"
1926-S "Monster Toned"
1885 "Monster Toned"
Oh, and he also has up a 24 Peace Dollar in a ANACS holder which he is keyword spamming with for NGC and PCGS.
Time for another "witch hunt"
1879-S "Monster Toned"
1889 "Monster Toned"
1921-S "Monster Toned"
1926-S "Monster Toned"
1885 "Monster Toned"
Oh, and he also has up a 24 Peace Dollar in a ANACS holder which he is keyword spamming with for NGC and PCGS.
Time for another "witch hunt"
0
Comments
Time to go bid....
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
is a scary creature that wake small children up in the night. Sometimes monsters live under
beds, other times they live in closets and sometimes they go to eBay.. In any event, I think the chef
cooked the product just a tad too long.
Camelot
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Now, if he could just get them to acg they could trademark "TM" toning.
I think we have a "dandy" "powerseller" in the making, here.
z
<< <i>In any event, I think the chef cooked the product just a tad too long. >>
Well that shows you how much I've learned. I thought they seemed half-baked.
GSAGUY
Maybe he even has some kids we can call and convince them that their dad is a Scumbag!!!!!!!
Let's get him and get him good. We might even be able to find out who his parents are and we can relay to them what a scumbag they raised.......
God I'm sooooooooooo proud right now.
Attack Attack Attack.....
Burn him at the stake......I'm sure you have a match!!!!
I want to say that I closed all my auctions and will be sending the coins in to be graded by PCGS or NGC. If they come back in body bags then I will tell you all that is what happend and I was wrong. However if they come back slabbed then I expect to see some pretty embarrassed people. I will report back either way. In the meantime I have issued an email to winning bidders offering a refund until this is settled one way or the other by the experts. I did not cancel the auctions because I am wrong but becasue I don't know and until a 3rd party says they are real I took them off the market. I just hope that you are all wrong and you have to eat your words, however if they come back in BBs then I will report it as such and tell you all how right you were. In the meantime try to practice some restraint on who are we going to get next. You did not get me per se, the verdict is still out until the slabs or bodybags come back.
Alan
By the way, if you are a converted coin doctor, how would you like to lend some expertise to a new website identifying doctored/AT coins on Ebay?
Thanks
Michael
The funny thing here is that YOU led the most venomous of attacks on Aswimmer...he has met all your requests so you have nobody left to attack.....Exept of course the current "victim" you found........
So now your attacking me....I knew this was coming.,
You would have made a good private in WW2. For Germany.
I am offering a class on the subject at the next Ebay Convention. Hey might as well profit from speaking just like the North, Clinton and others have done. I AM KIDDING.
I don't know what to say since if I knew more about the subject of toning I would not have put the coins up to start with. However if the coins comeback slabbed then I was right and I do know how tell the difference and then could say I know something.
I have never sent a coin in for grading , any tips about PCGS or NGC and I understand you have to join each to send them coins.
Alan
You are zee new commander......Vee vill all follow you blindly into zee nacht.
Vee Love you. Guide us....
Are you from France?
Holy Crap! That Morgan is HOT! Just as described! Looks like you just pulled her out of the oven, wait a minute you DID just pull her out of the oven! Next time you wanna bake a coin then sell it on eBay as Toned make sure you describe it as such!
Chris
We'll see what he has to say!
I think the issue here HAS to be that it isn't the coins, but the way they're listing them. You guys want any suspected AT coin (and all it takes is YOUR opinion) to have "AT" prominently displayed somewhere? Am I getting close? Is that the issue?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
<< <i>Can someone point out for me where THIS guy portrays these as genuine original? He doesn't sya they're AT, he doesn't say they aren't. What am I missing?
I think the issue here HAS to be that it isn't the coins, but the way they're listing them. You guys want any suspected AT coin (and all it takes is YOUR opinion) to have "AT" prominently displayed somewhere? Am I getting close? Is that the issue? >>
By not stating that the coin is AT, the seller is deceiving the buyer and taking advantage of ignorant buyers. I actually think the coins probably looked a lot better white though. For a coin doctor, this guy leaves a lot to be desired.
-Jarrett Roberts
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
as for aswimmer: send in your best toners, I will be very very surprised if ANY of them get slabbed.
send in more than your best looking 2 or 3 though, and you will be wasting money. If the overwhealming majority of the members of this board think they look AT, so will Ngc and Pcgs.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
He buys a white 82-S on ebay in January.
The same coin shows up a few weeks later beautifully toned, but right out of grandpa's collection.
Now he's going to send 'the coins' to PCGS or NGC to see if the toning is real because he can't tell the difference.
Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture?
GSAGUY
Every real toned coin I have shows more action on both sides.
endroll coins will only tone on one side..... Atleast on some of the Frankies I have seen...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I'd just like to say thanks to members like K6AZ, Gsaguy, Dragon, etc. I think you guys do a GREAT service to the hobby with your willingness to step forward, educate and aim the flashlight in to the eyes of these sewer rats.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You would have made a good private in WW2. For Germany. >>
Uh -- does Godwin's Law apply to this discussion group?
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>What is really bizarre about these ebay offerings is that (in general) the toning seems to be only on one side of the coin.
Every real toned coin I have shows more action on both sides. >>
Most Morgans are toned on one side. Has to do with them being stored in the bags. What ever side was touching the material is the side that toned ( Textile tone).
Morgans with tone on both side are rarer, and command a premium.
Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
Monty...
Saw your reply. I don't agree.
Hope you are having a good day!
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>gemtone-
Saw your reply. I don't agree.
Hope you are having a good day! >>
Dwood- Hoping you will go to this thread
LINK
and provide a response. Interested in your thoughts.
<< <i>I'm still not seeing where this guy claims these coins are genuine, or not AT. Again I ask, am I missing something? Or are we assuming that the guy is trying to deceive, as opposed to he doesn't know the nature of the toning, or he has carefully not stated the nature because he does know? >>
So tell me dwood, if you happen to come across an auction for a 19 14-D Lincoln, and you can clearly see the VDB on the shoulder, and the seller swears it came from his grandfather's collection, would you have a different opinion?
What don't you understand when a seller is selling six AT coins, all with the same AT? Your logic here escapes me.
A6- as much as you wish it were otherwise, it isn't against any laws to sell, posess, or manufacture AT coins. What I saw here was a rush to "guilt by association," in that because Swimmer was selling AT coins, he was also defrauding his bidders. I pointed out that Swimmer never made any claim as to the originality or "genuine" nature of the coins, until AFTER he was attacked by several forum members, yourself included. I also stated that I thought Alan had carefully chosen his words (a belief I even have discussed with him since) and that it seemed obvious to me he wasn't stating they were AT or not, nor was he stating they were original or not. As I see it, perfectly legal, the industry standard (better to say nothing at all when possible), and while not the highest road, certainly not fraudulent (IrishMike will disagree, and you might ask him and FrattLaw for their thoughts, particularly on Alan's statement of "Full Disclosure.")
And I've been flogged heartily, but my opinion hasn't changed. I thank God that several members here are just coin geeks, and not politicians. Were it so, I think I'd have a bunch of dead Muslims strapped to the hood of my car, and several others' heads mounted on my walls...all with bullet wounds from my .243. You know...if it walks like a duck and all
Painfull, SLOW, EXCRUCITAING death to coin doctors! Plague on the Swimmer clan, especially the children! All hail "the new truth."
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
The fact remains that these people are misrepresenting what they are selling, either deliberately or through ignorance. Either way they are responsible, and as long as my fingers can type I will point these frauds out.
If nothing else, those who read this board who may be novices are getting a great education in what AT coins look like.
Are you saying that an AT coin cannot legally be described as "a beautiful toned coin?" That's news to me, and if true, you can go on over to eBay right now and find countless more aswimmers just waiting to be crucified. Fish in a barrell, you know? What could be more fun?!?!?
Seriously though....
Lets say I sell you a coin on eBay, described as "a beautifully toned coin." You buy it at auction, send it in to be slabbed, and it comes back AT. I tell you I didn't know it was AT, I bought it from a guy on eBay 2 weeks before selling it to you. That's as far back as my knowledge of the coin goes (and lets suppose I can prove all of this). I'm no expert on toning, or Morgans, but I do have a return policy clearly stated in my auction. What am I liable for, and how have I defrauded you?
Now lets suppose that I say "yes, it is AT. I knew that and I assumed you knew that, else I would have priced it much higher. If you're unhappy with it, please see my return policies and take whatever action you prefer." What am I liable for, and how have I defrauded you?
Did ANYONE give Mr. Swimmer this option? Did ANYONE contact any of his previous buyers to determine if there was a problem, a pattern, or any disatisfaction? Perhaps I missed that thread? Isn't it entirely possible that Mr. Swimmer, whether or not he was toning the coins himself, was willing to take the return of any disatisfied buyer in order to satisfy them (as stated in his policies). Was he given this chance? Did he have a history of NOT doing this? Do we know for fact that he would not have reacted this way, or that he had not reacted this way in the past? Honestly, did we give this guy a chance to do the right thing, or did we shut him down lock, stock, and barrell before ever having a chance? You have to admit that his customers seem satisfied, and by my standards, there isn't even a HINT of impropriety coming from them (the most qualified to make that assessment).
Are people allowed to knowingly buy, and appreciate, and VALUE coins which have been artificially toned? Should they be? Should AT coins be destroyed? Outlawed? Banned?
I'd sincerely appreciate a serious answer to these questions, because I think they point to some of the problems that have upset myself and others here who don't agree with how this matter was handled.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
<< <i>If you take a $20 coin, AT it, and list it as a beautiful toned coin, you have just defrauded the buyer of $80, and this would be cause for a lawsuit. People have been sued for misrepresenting coins, and they have lost even on appeal to a state supreme court. >>
eric,
you have no clue as to what a fraud is or isn't. please, just stick to pointing out these auctions. if you believe there is a fair comparison between this auction and the hit AH took, then you are sadly mistaken.
Legally, has Swimmer committed fraud -- honestly, we'll never know. He's saying that he had no idea the coins are/could be AT. Unless one of his friends or business associates comes forward and says he doctored the coins, with the INTENT TO DEFRAUD! Otherwise, there's really no evidence that could be established in a court. You can doctor coins legally, see the link below.
Sure he could have doctored the coins to have fun and then got bored with them and decided to sell them. So he put them up on Ebay with a low starting price, since he knew they weren't real. If they were real he would have started the auction much higher. Therefore, anyone who had spent anytime on Ebay would know monster toned coins are not $20-$30 items and therefore the implication is that they are fake much like the coin in the following link Peace $ And of course cavet emptor, and he did offer a return policy if you didn't like the coin anyway.
Now of course we all know about the "grandfather" story and the other coins he bought, the chemicals, the alteration of pics ect. Which tends to make Swimmer appear very fraudlent. Those practices in light of his "full disclosure" statement on his ad does push the envelope of acceptable business practices under the Business and Professions Code here in California, he may also have problems with statutes dealing with false advertising & misrepresentation, ect. He may also have contractual violations, but there's no penalty awarded on contract suits, unless it's fraud, then you can get treble damages.
Unfortunately this type of thing will never see the inside of a courtroom. Too small fishish.
Could I argue both sides, sure. Could I secure a victory for both sides, probably so. And I would bet that Swimmer does have a lawyer available to him. His actions skirt the fine-line without going over it. Most people without the right advice would have a hard time with the minute distinctions.
So basically, you are both right.
Michael
Russ, NCNE
Boy, and was I proven wrong today. My dad always said that you can't shine a piece of crap. He obviously never met dwood.
GSAGUY
<< <i>you have no clue as to what a fraud is or isn't. please, just stick to pointing out these auctions. if you believe there is a fair comparison between this auction and the hit AH took, then you are sadly mistaken. >>
I most certainly do have a clue as to what deception and fraud is and how it pertains to gaining an unfair premium for a coin.
<< <i>Boy, and was I proven wrong today. My dad always said that you can't shine a piece of crap. He obviously never met dwood.
GSAGUY >>
And if we searched the far corners of the Earth, the tops of the highest peaks, the depths of the deepest oceans, and the vast wonderland of space, I doubt we could ever come up with a more qualified expert on crap than your father.
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman