THE "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD" SEAL OF APPROVAL

wondercoin · February 14, 2003 3:10PM

The Ultimate "Sticker" for your slab - the "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD" SEAL OF APPROVAL. Here is how it works:

1. We nominate (3) board members as experts in each of the different coin series following proper elections.

2. These 3 board member experts in each coin series agree to attend at least 3 major shows per year, at which shows anyone can present their PCGS or NGC coins for these experts "seal of approval". The seal of approval will only be given to solid for the grade, "undoctored" specimens. If, but only if a coin can obtain the "seals of approval" from all 3 board experts in the series, the coin earns the 'PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL - the most important seal a coin could possibly obtain. A coin with the "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL could trade sight-unseen without fear that the coin is a problem coin. A coin with the "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL would be entitled to premium points in the Registry. A coin with the "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL" would be the ultimate in numismatics.

What do you think?

Wondercoin

PTVETTER · February 14, 2003 3:15PM

FC57Coins · February 14, 2003 3:16PM

Kewl - think ceegarchompingpug Franklins will sell at a premium??

ccr · February 14, 2003 3:23PM

<< <i>think ceegarchompingpug Franklins will sell at a premium?? >>

That would be a neat one to have.

TAP444 · February 14, 2003 3:38PM

very interesting idea
Tim

jamesfsm · February 14, 2003 4:33PM

Needs a cool name like "Eagle Eye" or something.

Coppernicus · February 14, 2003 5:59PM

Great Idea!! I hereby nominate Russ for JFKs, Clackamas and coppercoins for Lincolns, and I'll come up with more after I've had some more time to review my notes.

LucyBop · February 14, 2003 8:08PM

<< <i>ceegarchompingpug Franklins >>

Maybe the sticker will say, 'HepKitty approved'.....

dddangerousdan · February 14, 2003 8:13PM

Hep kitty and the ceegarchompingpug for the frankies.

DAN

FC57Coins · February 14, 2003 9:12PM

THE NEW STANDARD

tggr · February 14, 2003 10:02PM

ursabear · February 14, 2003 10:05PM

Blade · February 14, 2003 10:10PM

We've got the experts, but the travel requirements could be tough.

Lakesammman · February 14, 2003 10:27PM

FC57 - you have 2 of 3 needed....sure like those seals.....

MrEureka · February 14, 2003 10:42PM

Well, if you can convince me that the people on this board are more knowledgable, more consistent and more honest than PCGS graders, I'd have to go along with this idea.

KlectorKid · February 14, 2003 10:42PM

If we do this I vote for Shylock (IHC), CopperCoins (Lincolns) and Lucy + The Cigar-Smokin Dog (Frankies)

Tonekiller · February 14, 2003 11:20PM

<< <i>Well, if you can convince me that the people on this board are more knowledgable, more consistent and more honest than PCGS graders, I'd have to go along with this idea. >>

More vocal!

EVillageProwler · February 14, 2003 11:35PM

I nominate myself as an expert for Trade Dollars and Early Dollars. TDN and Cardinal can send their coins to me for my opinion. I guarantee that the coins will not get lost in transit!

EVP

mrpaseo · February 14, 2003 11:58PM

OK, easy solution:

1. Figure out who these three people are, Well call them 1) Moe 2) Larry and 3) Curley for this demonstration.

2. Anyone can send these three numismatic experts a coin (With prior approval) for their opinion. The owner of the coin would have to foot the bill for S/H/I to the three secondary graders.

3. Once the three see a coin, they come together here on the forum to lay out what they found and agree on a grade/opinion.

4. The slab information is then kept by one of the experts here on the forums, or a pre-designated location by one of the forum moderators.

Results:
1. The three chosen opinionaters do not have to commit time and money to travel to the shows.

2. We as commoners here on the boards can watch the whole process in the making. (ie. the coin presentation, the exceptince of the three opinionators, the opinions as they receive the coins, their final opinion and the list grow as they all submitt their seal of approval).

And now for the bad news:
1. Is it worth it all?
a. Extra postage-If your buying a coin from a series and spending that much money on it shouldn't you know a little about the series?
b. What about the time it takes to decide to purchase the coin? Or the process?
c. The possibility of debate between Moe, Larry and Curly.

Well that about covers my opinion.
revise, revamp, let me know...
Ray

dpoole · February 15, 2003 12:09AM

The pattern seems to be here that somebody comes up with an appealing idea, there's a flurry of encouragement, one or a few folks take the bit in their teeth and put in a lot of work, and then the idea/exposure/access to the idea fades from view. Being bereft then of encouragement and participation, the hard workers lose motivation and quit working on it. These can even be very good ideas, such as listing people's expertise here, Coppercoins auction price surveys, etc.

The critical piece, then, is the structure and the follow-through.

If three people here are to spend their time and travel , people will need to 1) be widely convinced of the value of their effort (is it REALLY "the most important seal a coin could possibly obtain?"), 2) have it in the forefront of their mind when they go to shows even when it isn't the topic of a post on the first page here, and 3) use it constantly and widely.

Since this amounts to an uber-certification service, it seems to me that the case needs to be convincingly made that there is a need beyond what PCGS/NGC et al. do, and that this triumvirate for each series is the way to meet it.

Then, there needs to be standards set up for who actually comprises the triumvirate, so that they have credibility beyond just the fact they are known to some of the Board members.

Also, this needs to be organized and structured, so that there is some authority, organization, supervision and predictability to the service.

The availability/desireability of the service must be promulgated and ADVERTISED.

Finally, there needs to be some money paid for the service, to pay for the structure and the considerable time/expertise/inconvenience/location sites at shows you're asking of the triumvirate.

For me, I need to hear some more cogent arguments for the need for this, because to do it right, it will require a good deal of work and organization.

wondercoin · February 15, 2003 12:17AM

"Well, if you can convince me that the people on this board are more knowledgable, more consistent and more honest than PCGS graders, I'd have to go along with this idea. "

Andy: Remember, the PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL is for BOTH PCGS AND NGC COINS - so it is irrelevant whether I can grade Wash Quarters more "knowledgeable, more consistent and more honest than PCGS" (no comment). Since PCGS and NGC can't jointly agree much of the time what a coin should be graded, this service is "by the people, for the people". It takes control of the hobby back.

Is there anyone on this board that would not trust a slabbed Franklin half being sold on ebay that has the cigar smoking, hepkitty seal of approval on it?

Wondercoin

EVillageProwler · February 15, 2003 12:26AM

What are the general criteria for a SoA? PQ for the grade? Monster eye appeal? So very close to FH, CAM, etc., yet did not get the designation? Superb originality? What???

EVP

EVillageProwler · February 15, 2003 12:29AM

this service is "by the people, for the people"

And, let's not forget "of the people" ...

Sincerely,

A. Lincoln

Lakesammman · February 15, 2003 12:29AM

Since we all know each other (and I haven't seen anonymity mentioned), those of "us" in the "fraternity" could make some big bucks when it catches on. Shylock wouldn't dare turn down my coins and vice versa (yes, I know it's presumptuous - I wasn't nominated

)

Kind of sounds like the real world of coin dealing and doctoring

SInce I like my back scratched, I would scratch yours.

wondercoin · February 15, 2003 12:33AM

"What are the general criteria for a SoA? PQ for the grade? Monster eye appeal? So very close to FH, CAM, etc., yet did not get the designation? Superb originality? What??? EVP"

The (3) MESSAGE BOARD grading experts will get to decide which coins get the seal in the same arbitrary (yet, "consistent") manner as anyone else grades these days - if it is an 1885 Trade Dollar - it may automatically get the seal

If it is a Roosie Dime with a "full flame", I might not give it the "seal" even if I secretly like the coin, if elected (only kidding)

If coins that received a seal are ever questioned by the MESSAGE BOARD CONSTITUENTS, then the standard can change, in line with current grading practices. So, EVP, no need to put the "cart before the horse".

Wondercoin

EVillageProwler · February 15, 2003 12:45AM

Mitch,

You also mentioned how this idea, if implemented properly, will put the burden of effort and money on the owners of the coins. That may be true, but it certainly will also cost the experts some time and effort as well. For example, the experts will need to discuss the coins, need to keep track of what they assessed, need to package and ship the coins back, and will need to explain their decisions (so they'll need to keep notes too).

If this idea takes off, the burden on these 3 experts for a hot series will become significant. I think we ought to find a way to insulate the experts from political pressures. Also, I think we ought to consider the idea of appeal. Perhaps a panel of 3 appeals judges that get to decide which cases to take and how to rule. (This covers all series.) No appeal of an appellate ruling.

EVP

Twowood · February 15, 2003 1:18AM

This procedure is what I'd call ""A long trip to a small house".
I'll take the PCGS graders opinion and let it go at that. Twowood

nwcs · February 15, 2003 1:21AM

How much can I charge for my seal?

Sure sounds like a fun idea, though.

PhillyJoe · February 15, 2003 1:24AM

A seal of approval would be great.

Additionally, I'd like to have a Growl of approval from Bear as well.

I would actually welcome the chance to show some of my coins to our experts; I would feel more comfortable than walking up to a dealer I don't know.

Joe

braddick · February 15, 2003 1:48AM

And I suppose personalities will not play a role in this at all?!

tradedollarnut · February 15, 2003 2:07AM

This is about the stupidest idea in the world - and I know you've got to be joking, Mitch!

I can just see it now - post after post about how stupidly the JFK seal of approval team has acted. About how this dealer and that dealer sold a coin that wasn't approved and yet won't take it back at a full refund because some chat room board members think it looks funny. About this team member being less qualified than some other favorite team member. Etc, etc.

And last but not least, there are few, if any, members of this board (including myself) that are qualified to pass judgement on whether a coin has been expertly doctored. Please, oh please, tell us you were joking before this gets out of hand!

MrEureka · February 15, 2003 2:19AM

Why not just lobby all of the grading services to let dealers put their names on the slab insert? If the services allowed that, any retailer that valued his or her name would be careful not to put his "brand" on a low end or doctored coin. Would the "brand" guaranty anything? Only if the dealer made representations to that effect.

This might be the best way to get reputable dealers to police their own market. I'd like to know what Rick Snow thinks of this idea, since he's done something similar with Indian cents...

northcoin · February 15, 2003 2:20AM

Stupid or brilliant, it doesn't really matter at this point. This is how all great things get started. The end product may look nothing like the first proposal, but the underlying force is whether there is a need here that can be met. Me thinks so, although I'm not quite sure what it is yet. It could be something to do with a need for validation. It could be something to do with a need for comradery.

EVillageProwler · February 15, 2003 2:29AM

TDN,

I agree with you that this idea has the potential of being more trouble than it's worth, but the notion of appreciating a coin because of someone else's blessing is not a new thing. Walter Breen used to charge money for a written letter saying something or other about a coin. I chase after Seated Dollars after I get the seal of approval from a couple of people. I even inquired about Legend's 1878-S TD simply because you recommended it.

Currently, Rick Snow does this professionally...

Personally, I think this is a fun idea to toss around. If it becomes something, great. If not, then we'll move onto something else.

EVP

EVillageProwler · February 15, 2003 2:30AM

And I suppose personalities will not play a role in this at all?!

It is a very realistic fear that politics will undermine this idea...

EVP

MrEureka · February 15, 2003 2:33AM

And I suppose personalities will not play a role in this at all?!

Do you really think that Legend (for example) will put its brand on their buddies' doctored coins?

Whitewashqtr · February 15, 2003 2:42AM

Why cant we start a grading business and hire the 3 experts to grade coins for each series. We can pay for their travel and expenses from the grading fees that we charge. Obviously, we have better experts than the grading services, so why dont we make money from it as well!!

MrEureka · February 15, 2003 3:08AM

Why not just lobby all of the grading services to let dealers put their names on the slab insert? If the services allowed that, any retailer that valued his or her name would be careful not to put his "brand" on a low end or doctored coin.

Do you really think that Legend (for example) will put its brand on their buddies' doctored coins?

More importantly: Would YOU pay a premium for anyone's brand? (Legend? Whitlow? Benchmark?)

wondercoin · February 15, 2003 3:18AM

"I can just see it now - post after post about how stupidly the JFK seal of approval team has acted"

TDN: I admit, I haven't penciled in yet who the top JFK "team" would be, BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU, YOU WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER WITH THE TRADE DOLLAR TEAM OF BOARD EXPERTS AND I CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE YOUR 1885 TRADE DOLLAR WOULD RECEIVE THE "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL"

Wondercoin. PS - TDN - What are the chances your 1885 Trade Dollar would not cross to a PCGS holder, if it has on it the "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL"?

Legend · February 15, 2003 3:25AM

I'm sorry but this idea could not possibly fly and I would NOT support it. There are few members (including some of the dealers on here) here who have real active experince with doctored coins or really know what they are looking at (what their eye might like anothers won't). Seeing a coin or two is not enough. You need to be in a controlled enviornment where there are set standards-like what the major services have. Opinionating and grading are not a game. I've seen too many people who have to go to other people for advice on easy purchases. Sorry, the expertise is not there. Any kind of seal of approval is a very serious issue that needs the best and brightest.

This new anti coin fraud group thats being formed will be comprised of the BEST and the BRIGHTEST. Included will be many ex-PCGS/NGC graders, several of the top "grading" dealers in the biz, and one or two representatives from major retail firms. This is not going to be an amateur bunch. Plus, the founders of the group already know who does what to coins.

Look, I've been in this game for 25+ years. I can certainly hold my own grading and identifying doctoring-but I'm no where near the best. I'm telling you, the people invloved are going to make sure the "right" thing is going to get done. An advisory group from this board is NO match to a hostile coin doctor (don't even kid yourself-these guys all like to sue) or retail dealer who has the experince of a certain series that many people may never see. Plus, its just insane to try to brand within brands. It WILL create disruption in an orderly market. Flame me if you want, but there are few collectors who have deep enough experince (you really have to see thousands of coins a year) to be qualified to render any kindof professional opinion.

Laura Sperber

wondercoin · February 15, 2003 3:52AM

"You need to be in a controlled enviornment where there are set standards-like what the major services have"

Laura: Very good post

But, I thought you mentioned previously that the the "doctored coin detection group" would simply do their job at a table at major shows for a buck or two?

Well, anyway, we agree on one thing - what this hobby needs now is skilled, dedicated, AND HONEST collectors and dealers who can assist collectors with important coin purchases and who can also assist in putting "coin doctors" out of business.

And, while the talent on these message boards may be, for the most part, "amateur", there are several ex PCGS/NGC graders here as well, as well as the top collectors in each field who, in many cases, are extremely talented in their particular field of expertise

I still haven't answered TDN's question to me of whether I posted this thread last night with the belief this idea had any chance for success, as opposed to introducing the concept to point out that collectors could easily recapture this hobby if things continue to get too far out of hand (like 25% crossover rates dropping even further, etc).

Wondercoin
Wondercoin

banknote1 · February 15, 2003 3:54AM

I guess I still don't get it! If the experts at PCGS can't tell if a coin has been doctored or not, how will Laura's experts be able to tell? Are the former PCGS/NGC graders any better than the current ones? What if a doctored coin slips by her Pros.? Who is then to be held accountable?
IMO(which is worthless) PCGS and the other services need to address this issue in house! Maybe they should look at the coins a little more closely. I used to use a stereo microscope 20 and 30 x. It is amazing what you can detect when you look at a coin with both eyes than trying to squint through a glass.

MrEureka · February 15, 2003 3:59AM

its just insane to try to brand within brands. It WILL create disruption in an orderly market.

Laura - First, doesn't the Legend "brand" already help you sell PQ PCGS and NGC coins at PQ prices? (It's not as easy for a no-name retailer.) Second, would you please explain what you mean when you say the coin market is "orderly"? I've heard people say a lot of things about the coin market, but never that!

MS68 · February 15, 2003 4:17AM

Laura- No disrespect intented, but why don't you stop playing games and just tell us who these "experts" are. They obviously have nothing to hide. Why all the secrecy? Why do you believe these "experts" will be able to do so much better a job than PCGS or NGC? Will they have a guarantee like PCGS and NGC have? As you well know, it is one thing pointing out the obviously bad coins. How about coins like Anaconda's Roanoke? That coin has been studied by quite a few "experts" and there still is no definitive answer on whether the coin is good or bad. How will your experts treat this? If they disagree with NGC and call the coin bad, does that make them the "final word".
I agree that something needs to be done to combat the coin doctors. Having the grading privileges suspended or even revoked of individuals sending in doctored coins and having their names put out for all to see would appear to me to be a better solution to this problem. You might say that the doctors could then just go to their friends to submit their coins, but what dealer in their right mind would let someone submit doctored coins under their name if they had to fear having the public see their name listed under the "suspended for submitting doctored coins" heading at PCGS or NGC home page. Just my humble opinion on this issue.

wondercoin · February 15, 2003 4:38AM

"How about coins like Anaconda's Roanoke? That coin has been studied by quite a few "experts" and there still is no definitive answer on whether the coin is good or bad. How will your experts treat this? If they disagree with NGC and call the coin bad, does that make them the "final word". "

Very interesting point. Obviously, the "experts" at PCGS did not think it was real at some point, while the "experts" at NGC at first thought it wasn't, but then thought it was, while the experts at ANACS thought it was real. Now, what if the "new coin doctor detection service" says it is not real? What happens next? Seriously, WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? Someone please explain. Bottom line is the way I see it - NOTHING HAPPENS -right? Certainly NGC will not be paying off on the coin.

At least with the PCGS MESSAGE BOARD SEAL OF APPROVAL, if the three top commem experts on this esteemed board give the coin "thunbs up", you can be sure that will mean a hellava lot to the next purchaser

Wondercoin

tradedollarnut · February 15, 2003 6:28AM

Mitch: I agree with you that a 27% crossover rate is ridiculous. I agree with you that eventually the collecting community will take back some of the power that the grading services have. I disagree with you that this chatroom represents the pinnacle of the collecting community with respect to doctoring coins. Most members of this chatroom wouldn't know a doctored coin if it walked up and tapped them on the shoulder. No disrespect, but let's face it - it takes seeing thousands and thousands of coins and even then less than half are caught (IMO). However, I've decided that you know that and are just funnin' us.

WRT the 1885, if it crosses it crosses. If it don't, it don't. Either way it won't make much of a dent in that 27% number!

wondercoin · February 16, 2003 6:01AM

TDN: I agree, but it is still fun to watch "rank amateurs" like Supercoin give Julian and Mark a run for their money (like on the recent thread).

Wondercoin

FC57Coins · February 16, 2003 6:29AM

You have a forbidden word in your message post. Please click the back button in your browser and remove this word from your post. The words that are forbidden are highlighted for you.

See - eeeeeeeeeverything is a big production here! Refer to Wondercoin's second post and you will see this:

---------->

<--------------
This the symbol of a joke...

Wondercoin was joking...

I was joking....

and then all of a sudden a big argument ensues as to whether such a ridiculous idea in the first place would work! MAN - some folks on here NEED to be on medication!!!

LucyBop · February 16, 2003 6:32AM

Hey, I wasn't joking... The HepKitty seal of approval should be found on the most discriminating Frankie collectors collection... Atleast one of em.....

wondercoin · February 16, 2003 6:41AM

"Hey, I wasn't joking... The HepKitty seal of approval should be found on the most discriminating Frankie collectors collection... Atleast one of em..... "

Hey, the thought of slabbing a coin was nothing but a big joke in 1985

Wondercoin

supercoin · February 16, 2003 7:02AM

it is still fun to watch "rank amateurs" like Supercoin

I am not a rank amateur. I shower daily, thank you.

THE "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD" SEAL OF APPROVAL

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THE &quot;PCGS MESSAGE BOARD&quot; SEAL OF APPROVAL

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THE "PCGS MESSAGE BOARD" SEAL OF APPROVAL