A Worthwhile Post
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
This was posted by Zerbe in another thread. It deserves its own thread:
"I am off the coin doctor bandwagon. Most people responded to all the coin doctor threads with their views of the "good" and also the bad effects of coin doctoring. The point of the coin doctor threads, as far as I was concerned, was to DO Something to stop the handful of bigtime coin doctors that do irreparable damage to valuable coins.
And since coin doctoring is fraud and deceit, especially when it involves PUTTY and coloring and thumbing, etc., most coin doctors will screw you big time in the way they conduct business from their multimillion coin companys.
Belonging to the PNG is out of the question for the top coin doctors, and if they did belong, they would probably be thrown out eventually.
I realize now that many dealers are in bed with the coin doctors, and want the coin doctors to thrive, because these are the dealers who are selling a "product", and could care less about the condition of coins they are selling to you. It is all basic, basic, basic >>GREED.
All of you that have not experienced a defective doctored coin, or a fraudulent rip off type of deal that is common from a coin doctor, GOOD LUCK. I know you rely on PCGS to make you "whole", and if you do not mind all the trouble and hassle of trying to have your doctored coin reimbursed by PCGS, then I suppose you have nothing to lose.
It is not a secret that a gang of dealers were all over Laura, when she started a coin doctor thread this week. I can guess who a few of these dealers are, and I can proudly say that I have never bought a single coin from them, and never will.
One dealer has a PR PCGS $ 20 Lib in his inventory that I need for my 20th century gold proof set. Stick it !!!, because I know where it came from.
The coin doctors biggest weapon is the law suit. If it were not for this twisted defense, I would be happy to name the big coin doctors here. But, even if they were named, what would that accomplish ?? You might not buy from them, and not get stuck with a doctored coin or be treated unethically, be over charged, have your money tied up for a lenthly time, etc.,
The bottom line is, you and I can probably never put a dent in the coin doctors. The large rare coin wholesalers, who are also coin doctors, sell pimarily to dealers. Dealers live with the situation, because a lot of them 'live and thrive off the coin doctors. The dealers who , ( and I know many ) despise and will never buy from the big coin doctors are probably in the minority and as Laura was shot down by some of her fellow dealers, who kiss the ass of the big coin doctors, they are powerless to do anything.
Even though this thread was labeled coin doctors, which is a problem, the point I was trying to establish even more so , was the DANGER OF DOING A TRANSACTION with a company owned by a coin doctor. COIN DOCTORING IS FRAUD>>>>COIN DOCTORING DEALERS
HAVE NO PROBLEM COMMITTING FRAUD IN A COIN TRANSACTION.
Laura and Mark outwardly do not like coin doctors. Have you seen any dealers come on here to defend the big coin doctors??? That is because they do not want you to know who they are. They are good at hiding, just like their SLIMEY LEADER.
Just try to know who you are dealing with. The end. "
"I am off the coin doctor bandwagon. Most people responded to all the coin doctor threads with their views of the "good" and also the bad effects of coin doctoring. The point of the coin doctor threads, as far as I was concerned, was to DO Something to stop the handful of bigtime coin doctors that do irreparable damage to valuable coins.
And since coin doctoring is fraud and deceit, especially when it involves PUTTY and coloring and thumbing, etc., most coin doctors will screw you big time in the way they conduct business from their multimillion coin companys.
Belonging to the PNG is out of the question for the top coin doctors, and if they did belong, they would probably be thrown out eventually.
I realize now that many dealers are in bed with the coin doctors, and want the coin doctors to thrive, because these are the dealers who are selling a "product", and could care less about the condition of coins they are selling to you. It is all basic, basic, basic >>GREED.
All of you that have not experienced a defective doctored coin, or a fraudulent rip off type of deal that is common from a coin doctor, GOOD LUCK. I know you rely on PCGS to make you "whole", and if you do not mind all the trouble and hassle of trying to have your doctored coin reimbursed by PCGS, then I suppose you have nothing to lose.
It is not a secret that a gang of dealers were all over Laura, when she started a coin doctor thread this week. I can guess who a few of these dealers are, and I can proudly say that I have never bought a single coin from them, and never will.
One dealer has a PR PCGS $ 20 Lib in his inventory that I need for my 20th century gold proof set. Stick it !!!, because I know where it came from.
The coin doctors biggest weapon is the law suit. If it were not for this twisted defense, I would be happy to name the big coin doctors here. But, even if they were named, what would that accomplish ?? You might not buy from them, and not get stuck with a doctored coin or be treated unethically, be over charged, have your money tied up for a lenthly time, etc.,
The bottom line is, you and I can probably never put a dent in the coin doctors. The large rare coin wholesalers, who are also coin doctors, sell pimarily to dealers. Dealers live with the situation, because a lot of them 'live and thrive off the coin doctors. The dealers who , ( and I know many ) despise and will never buy from the big coin doctors are probably in the minority and as Laura was shot down by some of her fellow dealers, who kiss the ass of the big coin doctors, they are powerless to do anything.
Even though this thread was labeled coin doctors, which is a problem, the point I was trying to establish even more so , was the DANGER OF DOING A TRANSACTION with a company owned by a coin doctor. COIN DOCTORING IS FRAUD>>>>COIN DOCTORING DEALERS
HAVE NO PROBLEM COMMITTING FRAUD IN A COIN TRANSACTION.
Laura and Mark outwardly do not like coin doctors. Have you seen any dealers come on here to defend the big coin doctors??? That is because they do not want you to know who they are. They are good at hiding, just like their SLIMEY LEADER.
Just try to know who you are dealing with. The end. "
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Comments
dragon
the time to start putting up or shutting up is upon us. it seems that within an obvious "coin doctor" thread if someone were to post something of this nature-------i have had experience with ______ and in my opinion he engages in unethical practices and should be avoided--------the message would be clear. for kripe sake, there are enough lawyers on board that one of them should be able to volunteer anonymously a statement that would allow a post without fear of retribution. all the puffing and posing is BS. is you have knowledge and are as concerned for the hobby as claimed, S**T or get off the pot!!!
al h.
I also completely agree with Mr. Keet's post. If, hypothetically speaking, I were to say that I think Benchmark Ventures is a producer of doctored coins, then that would be my opinion, right or wrong. I would not be stating that to be a fact, just that it is my opinion (hypothetically speaking, of course).
<< <i>All of you that have not experienced a defective doctored coin, or a fraudulent rip off type of deal that is common from a coin doctor, GOOD LUCK. >>
I was thinking about some of the "oh well" attitudes about this problem, and it occurred to me that it may be precisely because that attitude is coming from many who have never been a victim. Kind of like the rehab advocate ranting against harsh punishment for scumbag criminals - until they become a victim themselves.
Just in the very short time I've been participating in this hobby, I've already been nailed by a coin doctor. It pisses me off, and I want something done to slow these pukes down.
Russ, NCNE
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The problem is that these days defending a lawsuit is a time-consuming and very expensive project, and in most cases one that you have to shoulder without help from an insurance company. Besides, juries are right most of the time, but remember OJ! I base this comment on more years of practicing law than I have spent as a coin collector!
list going.
Nick
Dragon, Keets, and Flash, you want to hear a name and think that a person would not be sued for doing so. To name a person, you would need proof. Even though it is almost general knowledge, you would not be able to publicly name a coin doctor, unless you were in his presence when he doctored a coin and you video taped it. Just coming out and saying Steve, or kevin or Paul is a coin doctor is probably grounds for suit. I am not a lawyer, but my brother is. People think if they are sued and there is no basis for the suit, then
"bring it on", it will not cost me anything.
I will give you a brief education on what happens if somebody sues you. Lawyers please correct me if I am wrong here.
You receive the papers telling you to appear at so and so Court.
You call a lawyer to defend this suit, unless you are a lawyer.
You meet the lawyer at his office and after a half hour, you hire him.
You must at this time give him his 'retainer', which at minimum is $2,000. From this point on every call made to you, or made anywhere else on your behalf is clocked. If you call your lawyer and talk to him for 2 minutes, you are not charged for two minutes, there is a "minimum charge of 15 minutes. A good lawyer ( lawyers help here ) the last I heard will charge $200 per hour. He usually has an assistant who does a lot of the leg work and that will only cost you about $150 per hour. After your lawyer and the "coin doctors" lawyer spend hours ($$$$$$$$$$) on the phone going over all the evidence and facts, people involved in the case have to be Deposed at the lawyers office. You will be deposed, the coin doctor and any witnesses. This involves your lawyer hiring a stengrapher to record all depositions. Her charge, would be apprximately $150 per hour.
After all the depositions are transferred to paper, I think this is a charge also, then your lawyer has to read all of the depositons, which could take hours($$$$$$$). Then more calls to you and the coin doctors lawyers,($$$$$$$). By now you have spent a minimum of $20,000. And remember, you are innocent, so you think. Next, settlement talks between both lawyers, on the phone again,($$$$$). You might not want to make a settlement, and want to take it the case to court. Your lawyer at this point, gives you a figure of what it will cost to defend the suit in court, ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) You now either settle or go to court, ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$).
I probably left out a few charges or steps here. If you learn nothing here, remember one thing, watch the clock as you speak to your lawyer, because 3 minutes to you is actually 15 minutes to a lawyer===3 minutes =$50.
Sorry everyone, that I had to put such a lenthly explanation, but people that do not experience a lawsuit have not the slightest idea of what is involved. Some people have been kind of flip talking about a lawsuit. Some people love to sue and if you are the unfortunate object of that suit, it will cost you big, in time and money.
If anybody wants to name names, go right ahead, but I will stay a little elusive. If you really do not know at this point, who the big coin doctors are, then call a trusted dealer and ask him who he suspects of being the infamous coin doctors.
Zerbe
As a former court clerk I know very well what is involved.
"If you really do not know at this point, who the big coin doctors are, then call a trusted dealer and ask him who he suspects of being the infamous coin doctors"
I we can't find out who these people are here, in an anonymous forum, how can we expect a dealer to tell us who they are, by phone or in person? I guess some people are just satisfied to keep the coin doctor's identities a secret so they can continue to perform their nefarious deeds.
al h.
Tell me, Keets: If an envelope arrived in your mailbox naming coin doctors, would you post the names under the same circumstances you just outlined? Do you really want to lose everything you have on the off chance you were wrong... or even worse, on the off chance a judge thought you were wrong?
you outline 2 totally different scenarios. if i received your proverbial envelope in the mail it would go into the fire. thing is, if zerbe is posting here because he received an envelope in the mail, he should stop post haste. if he is as certain and all as he claims, let 'er rip. otherwise he's just here with heresay which is senseless and his approach of keeping quiet is the prudent one, but should include not posting threads about it. they really serve little purpose, almost like two women possiping over the fence.
coins have been doctored since they've been collected for more than face value, it's just human nature. as long as collectors pay huge premiums, individuals will try to profit from the created market. stop paying stupid premiums and the problem would go away. consider some of the coins in your collection and rest well if you have a rock solid history of where they've been since minted. otherwise...........and don't allow your pride to smirk at that staement, just give laura a call.
oh yeah, why are you fighting someone else battle??
al h.
coins have been doctored since they've been collected for more than face value, it's just human nature. as long as collectors pay huge premiums, individuals will try to profit from the created market. stop paying stupid premiums and the problem would go away. consider some of the coins in your collection and rest well if you have a rock solid history of where they've been since minted. otherwise...........and don't allow your pride to smirk at that staement, just give laura a call.
Keets, your attitude about coin doctoring is apparent in the above statement. You go with the flow and do not see it in anybody's interest to try and do something about stopping coin doctoring. You say "stop paying stupid premiums". Somebody that buys a 1910 PROOF 66 $10 Indian, that is a puttied, and was upgraded from a PROOF 65, is not paying a premium. He is a victim of fraud, because he bought a PR65 made into a PR66 illegally, and fraudulently.
I will not argue with you about the name the coin doctors thing. If you still do not understand why a coin doctor cannot be named publicly by now, then I give up. I will say this. If the coin doctor I write about were ever convicted of coin doctoring, then legally I could publish his name, but then again, it has been said that coin doctoring is not a crime. So we are going round and round here chasing our tails. That is why I have been focusing lately on the way a coin doctor is just as fraudulent in his coin business transactions as he is at creating fraudulent coins.
All I can say now is I am off the coin doctor bandwagon. I know many people do know the names alluded to in these coin doctor posts. I will not even say how I know this, but believe me the word has spread, by many people that I have heard from and talk to.
The people that have not determined who the worst couple of coin doctors are, I am sorry. If you correspond with other members on this forum and really want to know, just ask in private. At a coin show, ask a trusted dealer, or other coin collectors. I was able to learn their names very easily, and once you know their names and mention it to almost any coin dealer, they will know what you are talking about. It is something they do not want to being up on their own, because these people give all coin dealers a bad name.
Okay Keets, I was not going to do any more coin doctor posts, but you jumped on TDN, so you got one more out of me, but that is it.
Paul Taylor
GSAGUY
boy paul, have you not been paying attention to anything i posted. i've made it very clear in most every response i make regarding the "i know names but can't say anything for fear of retaliation" threads. i always say step up and name names.
At a coin show, ask a trusted dealer, or other coin collectors. I was able to learn their names very easily, and once you know their names and mention it to almost any coin dealer, they will know what you are talking about. It is something they do not want to being up on their own, because these people give all coin dealers a bad name.
seeing this statement, i can understand your reluctance to posting any names. it's pure hearsay, much like TDN's anonymous letter would be. i would also wonder what other dealers would hope to gain by not ridding their ranks of these people. exposure would seem to be in all our best interests, but obviously non-exposure works to the advantage of some. agendas.
al h.
We already know coins are doctored.
We already know many leading dealers and respected heavy-hitter collectors know who the coin doctors are.
We already know nobody will name names.
Does that about wrap it up?
al h.
I look forward to the post that moves from the "na-naa, I know something you don't know" posture, to one of responsibility.
I have to assume that both of you, who would try to attack a post trying to do something about coin doctors, have somethiong to lose. You both absolutely must know who the big coin doctors are, and if it is imperative to you that the names be made public, thus more than likely incurring a law suit, then you two should post the names.
I know the ramifications of a lawsuit whether its' merits are for real or baseless. You two are apparently lawsuit proof and I will give you the names and you can post them.
Keets, since you have said "S--t or get off the pot", here is your chance to be a hero. I have made it very, very, clear that I will not publicly name the names. I am happy to cause some people to learn who these doctors are and maybe stir things up. You two do nothing but criticize and flap your lips.
Now the actual names can and will be made public, hopefully today, because KEETS and Registry Coin will be given the names and I am sure they will post them.
You imply I am wasting your time, so now please PM me, because you have wasted my time, unless you are going to post the names.
Registry coin you said, "my post was not one of responsibility", I beg to differ. I recognize the unpleasantness of a lawsuit, but you do not. If you think it would be "responsible" then name the names.
I am waiting for a reply by PM
If you have deep pockets, alot of spare time, an iron constitution, and irrefutable evidence, go for it!
I, by no means am afraid to name the names. It is just common sense not to let yourself be put under a lawsuit by the scum coin doctors. I am still waiting for your decision. Thanks.
ZERBE
It's obviously much easier for others to yap when it ain't their own arse on the line.
Looks like Zerbe will give you the names. Take him up on it and then you can post them here for all to see! S--- or get off the pot!
sending me a PM with names is all right if that's what you want to do, but as i stated in an earlier post, it wouldn't accomplish anything for me to spread hearsay. despite what you may believe, i have no knowledge of who any of these people are. to that end, your list would probably help me to avoid someone in the future.
send the info and i'll ask if members know who they are.
al h.
It's still good info to have however.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Sure I'd like to know who the heck we are talking about. No, I am not a coin doctor in dusguise waiting to sue, so if anyone cares to pm me with some names, I promise not to sue or disclose your identity.
As an attorney, I guess I should have more answers to some of your questions on the law, but libel/slander aren't my bag. I am curious about searching for coin dealers involved in lawsuits, and I have no reservations about sharing my findings.
I hate seeing collectors get defrauded into buying something that it ain't, and somehow the hobby needs to rid itself of these problems. A start would be for a show, such as Long Beach, to tell some of these dealers "keep your money, we don't have a table for you."
TRUTH
<< <i>I got a great idea. Let's all go to a coin show, Long Beach for example. Since Registrycoin will know of all the coin doctors by then, he will lead a group of collectors throughout the show. He will stop in front of each coin doctor's table, and do nothing but stand there for 30 seconds, with the group of collectors behind him. Then, all will proceed to the next coin doctor's table, then Registrycoin will stop again for 30 seconds, nothing said, nothing done. At the end of the day, the coin doctors will have been shown to all the collectors, but not publicly pointed out. Great idea, huh?
TRUTH >>
Ok, if we do that we won't have time for anything else. Best cut the time down to five seconds in front of each table. At least then we'll get out of there by dinner time.
peacockcoins
al h.
I love it! I'm there!!
All I can say is, since our slab-collecting community is, well, maturing, we are discussing the development of a new slab that gives all the information; item, grade, date, mint, variety, pedigree etc., in Braille on the back of the slab.
We hope that it would never be necessary, but the information in this form will allow any collector to cherish his slab, forever.
No more, "Let's dump grampa's slabs on ebay. He ain't read no slabs lately anyhow."
I hate to miss the show, especially lunch with the gang.
In my stead, please do sign up for lunch with Mitch, Wondercoin.
to the companies and representatives most recommended by Forum members. Perhaps instead of
naming the bad guys we should again name the good guys. Legend Numismatics, Pinnacle Rare Coins,
Wayne Herndon, R&I Coins, Numismatic Enterprises, Texas Bullion Traders , Larry Whitlow Ltd.
David Hall Rare Coins, Anaconda Rare Coins, Wonder Coins These are only a few of the good dealers.
You will notice most ,if not all are
contributors to this Forum. I have found these companies to be ethical, handle good quality merchandise
and are easy to work with, especially with Forum members. If you have other dealers of repute,
please name them and then we will have a list of who it is safe to buy from instead of who not to buy
from. Remember, you cant be sued for saying good things about the good people.
There are also collector/dealers who are long time members of this Forum that have always been
square and honorable in dealing with other Forum members. Bear
If I have left someone out in my list, it only because it is late and I am very tired. I do appologize
in advance. I will leave it to others to fill out the list of top flight companies. Bear
Camelot
Camelot
Even though you mentioned dealers you think are ok to deal with, you could still get sued for the order in which you listed them.
peacockcoins
Joe.