Legal to own uncanceled early Mint dies?
jacrispies
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Specifically referring to collectable pre-1833 early Mint dies. These are normally uncanceled and were sold as scrap steel as far as I know. Few were discovered/recovered although in rusted condition.
I was told by a dealer at the ANA that these are illegal to own, and purchasing one would entail private dealings as a public auction could introduce potential legal problems. I don't believe this is correct but would like to confirm. Are there any issues with privately owning uncanceled early U.S. Mint dies from a legal standpoint? Could they go through a public auction without issue?
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Comments
Legal as far as I understand it. I'm not an expert on it though so we'll see what others have to say.
I seem to remember there was some problem with at least some of those dies because they were illegally salvaged. But I don't remember the details.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If the government sold them as scrap steel, how could they not be legal to own?
I do not know the law on the matter.
I know a little bit about reality. The owners of the 1974-D Aluminum Cent made too big a splash, and lost it.
That aside, while working an ANA Convention once a man came up to me and handed me a Seated Liberty Dollar reverse die, With Motto, with S mint mark, undamaged and uncancelled, and asked for an offer. I could tell that he was a-hoarin’ it around and that no number was going to buy it, but I threw out a number I thought my employer could afford to lose if there was a problem down the road.
A good number of dies have been auctioned over the years and there have been no problems. On the other hand, none of them were in good enough condition to restrike perfect coins, and I would hesitate to publicly offer perfect dies of any legal tender coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The law most relevant to coin die ownership is 18 U.S. Code § 487, which forbids the ownership of fake coin dies, but does not seem, on plain reading, to forbid ownership of actual genuine coin dies, whether they are still capable of being used as coin dies or not. Of course, if a case were brought, one might have to prove in court that the dies were in fact genuine US Mint dies and not fake dies.
But unless there's evidence that the genuine dies were stolen government property, there's really no basis for a lawsuit.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
Because if they sold them expressly to be melted, you have to melt them. If the story i faintly remember was true
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
The best one I have seen was for the obverse of an 1807 Capped Bust half dollar. It was cracked. The crack was interesting. It went for the head of the die all the way down to the base, but the die was intact. A collector had this piece.
The ANA has the obverse die for an 1823 large cent. It was used to make the 1823 large cent restrike pieces.
No doubt they could enact a law to suit the governments position.
Strictly for melt per contract 👍
(Or pertaining to)
Similar but not quite the same. After World War II the government was getting rid of small arms at a fantastic rate. My dad and grandfather both worked at a Steel Plant in Atlanta. The plant received several hoppers of .45 caliber semi-automatic pistols that were supposed to have been rendered unusable by cutting with a cutting torch and were destined for the melting pot. A lot of the guns were just scrap but there were many where the "torch bearer" barely touched the weapon. They were able to take apart many and reassemble around 25 workable handguns from the pile. They shared them and many were sold for 20 to $25 each (a lot of money at the time). So, when items are sent to be melted/destroyed they don't always reach that fate. If folks on the receiving end "fancy" the item there are ways for it to avoid hitting the melting pot. Not legal, but it happens/happened.
I appreciate all of the replies. It seems like if they were sold to a refiner "to be destroyed," saving them from destruction would be a breach of contract. On the other hand, if there were simply sold for scrap to a metal refiner not specifically noted to be destroyed, then there may be little leverage the government could use to reclaim one of these historical pieces. Either way, this would be seemingly difficult to prove.
The fact that all of these dies are tucked away and not talked about is a big hint to my eyes. If collectors are already avoiding public face for these dies, I would not be the first to risk it.
Do you have examples of these auctions? I would love to see them. Uncanceled early dies I don't recall seeing any before at auction.
That is very cool. Perhaps it was an unused die that was damaged at the tempering process, and immediately scrapped. I would love to own that piece.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
The best account of early Mint dies is covered in The Secret History of the First U.S. Mint, pages 72-80. Images of 8 pre-1833 dies. Lots of documented research including the Mickley sale/confiscation, others.
The ANA also has an uncanceled obverse die for an 1820 half eagle. There’s enough die rust that it would be useless for making restrikes, but it’s still pretty decent looking.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.