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PCGS Trueviews are improving? (Edited for appropriate punctuation)

2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 16, 2024 12:37PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Submission photos from about a week ago…

Submission photos that just posted today, much much better!


Curious if anyone else is noticing an improvement?

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Comments

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,386 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2024 11:19AM

    Light is way too soft, yuck.

    Horrible photography, simply horrible!

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have two orders in now and my expectations are pretty low :(

  • 2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl you may be correct, i may have lucked out…
    But, there’s a huge improvement in my eyes.
    @FlyingAl have you given any thought about moving to California?😂

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2windy2fish said:
    @FlyingAl you may be correct, i may have lucked out…
    But, there’s a huge improvement in my eyes.
    @FlyingAl have you given any thought about moving to California?😂

    I'm doubtful PCGS would pay me anywhere near enough to make me even consider abandoning all the hard work I have done to get into college. I am, however, still doing photos via mail.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the Philippine coin photo. The bust dollar is OK, the bust half is too flat, and the toned dollar falls short on both luster and color, and not because one was chosen over another.

    I've said it before, but the TV department suffers from the need to produce a large volume at low cost. These four coins sent through again would probably look totally different, because you'll have different eyes and talent shooting them. The only way to resolve that is to increase the cost of good photos and fully automate slab mug shots.

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Could also be luck of the draw. I'm sure they have multiple photography stations.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My interpretation of the images is that I wouldn't be happy with any of those.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 8,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the 20 Centavos tv is probably what the coin looks like, I hope not on the others. JMO
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • knovak1976knovak1976 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2024 12:28PM



    I just got mine posted…and to be perfectly honest the coins look 100% better in hand than these Tru View shots. As a matter of fact the pictures I took of them seem much better in my opinion….


  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @2windy2fish While I do think your second set of photos is better looking, the only way to know if the TV department is "improving" would be to crack those first two coins and have them regraded and reimaged; that would be the only true comparison. And even then it might not prove much as a different member of the photo team might do the new images.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • 1madman1madman Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Knovak: PCGS appears to have gone out of their way to accentuate and highlight every hairline and problem on those franklins. I didn’t look up the grades, but first instinct after seeing those pictures would be details scratched/cleaned/wiped/etc.

  • knovak1976knovak1976 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭

    @1madman said:
    Knovak: PCGS appears to have gone out of their way to accentuate and highlight every hairline and problem on those franklins. I didn’t look up the grades, but first instinct after seeing those pictures would be details scratched/cleaned/wiped/etc. ….

    The grades are on the bottom of the posted photos and the coins came directly out of the cellophane packets from the original proof set boxes/packaging (I slid them into the plastic holder with extreme care to photograph them before putting them in the flip to send off for grading)….so if there was any cleaning, wiping, etc., it was NOT done by me. The sets were obtained from a reputable dealer who deals with higher quality proof/cam/DCAM coins….which is why these photos and grades were a bit disappointing.

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Their lights are too low on the Franklins. That's why the lines are pretty obvious.

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2024 4:47PM

    These are from a friends very recent submission, I don’t see much improvement. Looks like more of the same to me…

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are not GreatPhotos. Not at all :D

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least they are not the "glamour" shots I've heard people complaining of as not true to life. How are NGC's photos in comparison?

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NGC photovision has really made strides. They are not as good as Phil's but head and shoulders above the ones posted to this thread, in my opinion.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • etexmikeetexmike Posts: 6,779 ✭✭✭

    I will need to see lots of improvement before submitting another coin to be reholdered and with Trueview images. I wasn't satisfied with my last submission of cameo coins. I really like the idea of the Trueview image but not the product that is being produced presently. I'm sure someone is doing their best but is falling a little short for now.

    etexmike

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2024 5:53PM

    To the OP’s observations …..A Simple question - how can anyone be unhappy with (or complaining about) pics of coins they have never seen? What if the pics are a “mirror image” of the coins in hand? A couple of those OP pics look precisely what the coins might look like in hand, especially the USPI one.

    Time to get back to “having fun with your coins” and stop worrying who’s the greatest coin photographer in the land. I enjoy Phil’s pics, but guess what, Stacks had a team of coin photographers a few years back that would “blow you away”. One of them trained my (then young) son for a full day (thank you BK) and blew his mind with what he learned in 1 single day. I suspect, PCGS might be able to hire one of these former / present Stacks superstars if they ever needed to. On top of that, if my son learned everything he learned in a single day, I suspect that one or two members of the PCGS photo department learned a thing or two having worked there for years. 😉

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin said:
    To the OP’s observations …..A Simple question - how can anyone be unhappy with (or complaining about) pics of coins they have never seen? What if the pics are a “mirror image” of the coins in hand? A couple of those OP pics look precisely what the coins might look like in hand, especially the USPI one.

    Time to get back to “having fun with your coins” and stop worrying who’s the greatest coin photographer in the land. I enjoy Phil’s pics, but guess what, Stacks had a team of coin photographers a few years back that would “blow you away”. One of them trained my (then young) son for a full day (thank you BK) and blew his mind with what he learned in 1 single day. I suspect, PCGS might be able to hire one of these former / present Stacks superstars if they ever needed to. On top of that, if my son learned everything he learned in a single day, I suspect that one or two members of the PCGS photo department learned a thing or two having worked there for years. 😉

    Wondercoin.

    This is nicely put and well thought out except... Many of us have the same issue with coins that we own and have seen in hand. The pictures have been horrible and non-representative on everything from common circulated coins to six figure rarities.

  • 2windy2fish2windy2fish Posts: 765 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin
    I think there is a chance you misunderstood my post.
    I own all 4 of the coins in the original post.
    The first 2 photos are nothing like the coin in hand.
    The second set just posted last night on my account and are very close to what the coins look like in hand, i was simply being hopeful that perhaps PCGS has turned the corner and is making strides in improving their photography.
    I am not complaining that PCGS is lacking the best photographer in the business, but i would like to get more value for the money i spend with PCGS having my coins graded by them.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    2windy… I had no issues with the second set of pics, especially the USPI coin. You like them too. Good to see. So, you essentially answered your own question - yes?

    The top 2 pics are not in series I handle every day. You point out they look nothing like the coins in hand. They look like they are very collectible and “valuable” coins. So, worst case, ask PCGS to reshoot them for $10/coin? If you discuss them live at any show with PCGS, and they agree with you, I suspect they might even do it for free.

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lermish. I’m sure many do, but just as many likely do not. Over on the registry forum, I just saw 5 Roosie TV’s posted that it appears the owner is happy with. No doubt, if you have a $100k coin and have a legitimate claim that the TV is not representative of the coin, my suggestion is just pay the $10 and ask PCGS to reshoot it. I have a few pics in my Hall of Fame MS Washington quarter set (shot a number of years ago) that do not look good in my opinion. I’ll need to fix them at PCGS before I sell them off.

    Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @knovak1976 said:

    @1madman said:
    Knovak: PCGS appears to have gone out of their way to accentuate and highlight every hairline and problem on those franklins. I didn’t look up the grades, but first instinct after seeing those pictures would be details scratched/cleaned/wiped/etc. ….

    The grades are on the bottom of the posted photos and the coins came directly out of the cellophane packets from the original proof set boxes/packaging (I slid them into the plastic holder with extreme care to photograph them before putting them in the flip to send off for grading)….so if there was any cleaning, wiping, etc., it was NOT done by me. The sets were obtained from a reputable dealer who deals with higher quality proof/cam/DCAM coins….which is why these photos and grades were a bit disappointing.

    Goes to show how bad the original packaging is for long term storage.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin said:
    Lermish. I’m sure many do, but just as many likely do not. Over on the registry forum, I just saw 5 Roosie TV’s posted that it appears the owner is happy with. No doubt, if you have a $100k coin and have a legitimate claim that the TV is not representative of the coin, my suggestion is just pay the $10 and ask PCGS to reshoot it. I have a few pics in my Hall of Fame MS Washington quarter set (shot a number of years ago) that do not look good in my opinion. I’ll need to fix them at PCGS before I sell them off.

    Wondercoin.

    Couple of problems. Recently just paid for this service and so paying for it again due to them doing a crappy job is not very appealing. Also, it's not just $10 because there's shipping and, if you don't want an inholder picture, reholdering fees.

    Lastly and most important, these pictures were just taken within the last several months... Who's to say they're going to get it right this time? Not a week has gone by in the last 6 months that I haven't seen multiple people dissatisfied with TVs that are not quality photographs.

  • knovak1976knovak1976 Posts: 200 ✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:
    >

    Goes to show how bad the original packaging is for long term storage.

    Or that buying ‘quality coins’ from reputable dealers who pawn them off as incredible specimens and worthy of only the most discriminating collections is a waste of money….Seems it is happening too often.

  • HillbillyCollectorHillbillyCollector Posts: 483 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:
    These are from a friends very recent submission, I don’t see much improvement. Looks like more of the same to me…

    Ouch! I would definitely be sad to have TVs of my coins that looked like THAT!

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2024 9:16PM

    ‘’Make all the excuses you want to, but it’s clear that quite a few of us are displeased. The example you mentioned with 5 roosies doesn’t negate dozens of other comments that have been made over the past month or two in this thread and others.’’

    D Dan - with all due respect, I have (90) active registry sets (according to PCGS) that started in 1999 (some 24 years ago) and I haven’t sold 99+% of the coins in those sets over the past 3 decades. Do you think I don’t want nice pics to enjoy of these literally 1000+ slabs sitting in my safe boxes too? But, I believe there is an easier way to “get a problem fixed” than publicly shaming or embarrassing an entire department (not suggesting anyone in particular on this thread is doing that). Reasonable men will differ.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin And what better way do you suggest? You state that there are easier and better ways. I can't figure any out.

    Paying again for the same service which might continue to lead to poor results is unacceptable for multiple reasons.

    Customer service has been trained to not give an inch on any subject.

    We can't return the product. If we dispute the credit card charge because of a merchant dispute PCGS will immediately blacklist you from membership.

    How else can we possibly hope to get management's attention to this ongoing problem?

    (As an aside, I bet Ian at GC hired Phil Arnold, at least partially, due to griping here about poor quality photos. Ian realized it would cost him business and it was a bad look for a quality company. How do we get PCGS to realize the same thing????)

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ‘’Paying again for the same service which might continue to lead to poor results is unacceptable for multiple reasons.’’

    Lermish: It’s funny you say that, because I have been “programmed” to pay up to 20x for the exact same service to upgrade a “liner” coin I believe in for my collections. That’s what liner coins are all about - yes? Paying $25 or $35 with shipping to fix a photography issue is not in the same league in my opinion as paying show grading 10-20x for a coin you believe in. But, I have done that wearing my collector hat because I wanted a certain coin to achieve a certain grade. Some never do.

    I’m not sure of your experiences to conclude that customer service is trained “to not give an inch on any subject”. I’m sorry to hear you feel that way. You are right to generally never dispute a credit card charge over a “merchant dispute with PCGS”. It would never enter my mind in a situation like this.

    I can’t opine on why Ian hired Phil after selling over 1,000,000 numismatic items for the better part of $1,000,000,000.00 over a 12 year period (almost a quarter billion dollars alone in just year 2021). Can you imagine what Ian might be capable of if he had not only Phil but the best cataloguer in the industry! 😆

    No doubt PCGS has great talent in their photography department and as the OP noticed himself, things are likely progressing along better after some time readjusting to losing their top man.

    Wondercoin

    .

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,706 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2024 3:06AM

    I won't attempt to "embarrass an entire dept" or anything, but I'll say this. I have never in my collecting career submitted anywhere but PCGS, but with the current TV quality and the improvements across the street, my next group of submissions will go there. As consumers we speak with our wallets.

    Does PCGS not realize how crucially important this service is/was?

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2024 6:07AM

    @wondercoin Thanks for addressing my points but am I reading that correctly? Your answer is to just keep subbing coins over and over and over? I guess we'll just have to disagree because, if that is your answer for subpar TVs, that is absolutely absurd.

    It's nice that you think PCGS has talented people in the photo department and they are getting better but we have incontrovertible evidence that they do not have talented people and it is getting worse. I have been a huge fan of PCGS and they, for now, are still my favored service but your opinions of the current state of the TV service are at odds with the reality shared by nearly every person posting in this and other TV threads.

    I won't share my opinion of those who constantly resub the same coins attempting to get a higher grade.

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rather than trying again and again at PCGS for photos, there are other options.

    Private photographers often offer more shots of your coins and more options for a similar price range. NGC is also good, but their service is bound a bit by private equity.

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's a few bad pics from my last sub. The coins look nothing like this in hand. Not sure why the pics are all dark and yellowish. Annoying.




  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 2,949 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And here's a sub that shipped the same week. The difference? The coins above were reholders. The coins below were raw. Yeah, I think there's different groups taking the pics. They're wildly different.




  • HolyCityHolyCity Posts: 16 ✭✭✭

    If you’re not happy with the true view, can you request that PCGS delete it from their record? In my opinion, on an expensive coin, a bad true view like what I’m seeing examples of could really hurt the value in a sale if the buyer was going off pictures alone. I have some Seated Dollars I’d like to get true view’s eventually but no way am I sending them now.

  • redraiderredraider Posts: 118 ✭✭✭✭

    I had a submission recently that the True Views just sucked. As others have stated, I was pretty loyal to making my few submissions to PCGS, but now that has changed.

    Here is my shared order with the TVs....Just disappointed. I sent these to PCGS partly for the TVs in addition to the grading, hence why I paid extra for the imaging service. That was money not well spent and I learned my lesson. Wont happen again.

    https://www.pcgs.com/shared-orders/order-details/23665669

  • redraiderredraider Posts: 118 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree that private photography is a very good option, however PCGS TVs were used as a consistent baseline for collectors buying coins. There was value to that knowing that an unscrupulous seller wasn't using "juiced" and heavily edited photos.

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:
    @wondercoin And what better way do you suggest? You state that there are easier and better ways. I can't figure any out.

    Paying again for the same service which might continue to lead to poor results is unacceptable for multiple reasons.

    Customer service has been trained to not give an inch on any subject.

    We can't return the product. If we dispute the credit card charge because of a merchant dispute PCGS will immediately blacklist you from membership.

    How else can we possibly hope to get management's attention to this ongoing problem?

    (As an aside, I bet Ian at GC hired Phil Arnold, at least partially, due to griping here about poor quality photos. Ian realized it would cost him business and it was a bad look for a quality company. How do we get PCGS to realize the same thing????)

    Until anyone complains about their TVs to PCGS and gets a response it's all just speculation. I don't know if PCGS has a "satisfaction guaranteed" policy for TVs, but they might, and they might pay shipping. Speculation is pointless.

    The only way the TVs are going to improve is if customers make formal official complaints.

    @FlyingAl said:
    Rather than trying again and again at PCGS for photos, there are other options.

    Private photographers often offer more shots of your coins and more options for a similar price range. NGC is also good, but their service is bound a bit by private equity.

    I don't consider it an option unless PCGS allows us to upload them into the cert verification database. That's the big advantage because the file will never be lost and the photo pulls up seamlessly into every app including the registry. I for one don't want to have to keep track of and organize my coin photos and take time to upload them into registries.

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HolyCity said:
    If you’re not happy with the true view, can you request that PCGS delete it from their record? In my opinion, on an expensive coin, a bad true view like what I’m seeing examples of could really hurt the value in a sale if the buyer was going off pictures alone. I have some Seated Dollars I’d like to get true view’s eventually but no way am I sending them now.

    I speculate that the problem here is proving ownership. If I just ask to them to delete the photo of a random cert number, I'm not sure how I prove that I am in possession and that I'm the rightful owner of the coin and that I'm authorized to make that request. Obv CS could do a video call with you or something but that's probably more effort than they'd be willing to expend to delete photos.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin Thanks for addressing my points but am I reading that correctly? Your answer is to just keep subbing coins over and over and over?

    No. You did not read that correctly at all.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • robecrobec Posts: 6,524 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @HolyCity said:
    If you’re not happy with the true view, can you request that PCGS delete it from their record? In my opinion, on an expensive coin, a bad true view like what I’m seeing examples of could really hurt the value in a sale if the buyer was going off pictures alone. I have some Seated Dollars I’d like to get true view’s eventually but no way am I sending them now.

    I speculate that the problem here is proving ownership. If I just ask to them to delete the photo of a random cert number, I'm not sure how I prove that I am in possession and that I'm the rightful owner of the coin and that I'm authorized to make that request. Obv CS could do a video call with you or something but that's probably more effort than they'd be willing to expend to delete photos.

    Probably the same way people prove the coin is theirs when it is still in someone else’s inventory after you bought it. Take a photo of both sides of the slab with the current date showing somewhere to prove it’s current and send to CS.

  • AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The TV is trash!

  • lermishlermish Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin said:
    @wondercoin Thanks for addressing my points but am I reading that correctly? Your answer is to just keep subbing coins over and over and over?

    No. You did not read that correctly at all.

    Wondercoin

    Ok....I keep asking the same question because you don't care for public criticism of TVs. What is your solution?

  • bigjpstbigjpst Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2024 8:52AM

    I’m a bit disappointed with my recent submission. The pictures aren't horrible, but the main reason I submitted the group was for trueview of the toning that I knew I would have trouble capturing. I also made a note in the order to holder one of the coins with the reverse out, but that didin't happen either. This coin was the one I was hoping for something better on.



  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my 45 years as a professional photographer, I have found that corporations do not value the talent of talented photographers and resist paying photographers what they are worth.

    You get what you pay for.

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,225 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2024 9:18AM

    @robec said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @HolyCity said:
    If you’re not happy with the true view, can you request that PCGS delete it from their record? In my opinion, on an expensive coin, a bad true view like what I’m seeing examples of could really hurt the value in a sale if the buyer was going off pictures alone. I have some Seated Dollars I’d like to get true view’s eventually but no way am I sending them now.

    I speculate that the problem here is proving ownership. If I just ask to them to delete the photo of a random cert number, I'm not sure how I prove that I am in possession and that I'm the rightful owner of the coin and that I'm authorized to make that request. Obv CS could do a video call with you or something but that's probably more effort than they'd be willing to expend to delete photos.

    Probably the same way people prove the coin is theirs when it is still in someone else’s inventory after you bought it. Take a photo of both sides of the slab with the current date showing somewhere to prove it’s current and send to CS.

    That's not really proof of ownership. I can copy ebay photos and say I own a coin. It's probably acceptable for a registry when the impact will be noticed and it's easy to reverse and largely a waste of time for a troll claiming they own something they don't. I'm not sure how long it would take me to realize one my of my TVs got deleted.

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