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Buffalo fans. Will this one attribute?

OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 15, 2024 6:03PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Top one is a 1916-D 3-1/2 legger in an AU 58 PCGS holder, (took 2 submissions) Second one is a recent pickup.I t's going to be a hard sell for PCGS to tell me the second one shouldn't get the designation too. Everybody else is free to weigh in. Also looks to be a nicer coin, AU-59 (if it existed?)



Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).

Comments

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 6,468 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry can't help. I'm just here to say that your headline re: "Buffalo Fans" made me think of the NFL game I just watched!

    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • ManorcourtmanManorcourtman Posts: 7,880 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2024 7:16PM

    Based on my recent Buffalo experiences in the variety dept., I'd say they will not attribute them. Edit after reading again. I am surprised the top one got the attribution. I think they have been very inconsistent over the years in the Buffalo varieties.

  • jomjom Posts: 3,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see the attribute myself on either coin. I also don't agree with the grade on the first one. Then again, I don't have it in hand to see.

    jom

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would also agree that it seems neither deserves the designation. I think you caught a lucky break on the top one.

  • OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2024 6:56AM

    Still think its one. Here's the PCGS Coin Facts photo of the variety.

    Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:
    I would also agree that it seems neither deserves the designation. I think you caught a lucky break on the top one.

    I kinda agree with that. Looks like the second Buff has a more diminished front leg. But what the heck, you got the attribute.

    That's also a real bad (light) strike, almost to the extent of calling it an adjustment strike.

    1916 Buffs are for the most part struck well. The die was new and all the Mints had to do was properly coin them.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    I would also agree that it seems neither deserves the designation. I think you caught a lucky break on the top one.

    I kinda agree with that. Looks like the second Buff has a more diminished front leg. But what the heck, you got the attribute.

    That's also a real bad (light) strike, almost to the extent of calling it an adjustment strike.

    1916 Buffs are for the most part struck well. The die was new and all the Mints had to do was properly coin them.

    Pete

    Every 16-D 3HL I've seen, and I had one attributed AU-53 before the one I've shown, has the same badly deteriorated die. Confused by your reference to well struck 1916 coins.

    Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not much of a variety to begin with IMO. The first coin posted looked close but the second not so much. I'm biased, never been a fan of the partial leg thing. A die was lapped one or more too many times, oh my!

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I actually discovered this variety way back in 2004 or 2005 at a coin show here in Akron Ohio. That coin was a VF and had a
    real diminished front leg. It was really a rattly looking VF but the leg was actually half missing. I am somewhat surprised that the first coin did get attributed and for the second coin the top half of the leg looks wider than the first. I do not think the second coin will get attributed as FS-901 but who knows. It is at least worth a try IMO. I coined the term
    "proto-legger" for those coins that were not quite in the 3 1/2 legger class. Maybe these two should be called that.

    I picked up a 1917-d thee and one half legger that you could call a " 3 & 1/4" legged bison as the leg was really weak.

    buffnixx

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,745 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldabeintx said:
    Not much of a variety to begin with IMO. The first coin posted looked close but the second not so much. I'm biased, never been a fan of the partial leg thing. A die was lapped one or more too many times, oh my!

    Not a very impressive variety at all. I like the one’s you don’t have to struggle to determine if it is a variety or not. Just my opinion.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • ad4400ad4400 Posts: 2,026 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hate to be another naysayer since I truly appreciate your cherry picking abilities, but I am another “ no to either” voice. In this case, neither of the front leg seem terribly abraided. And on the second coin in particular, the die state doesn’t seem as bad as it needs to be for the attribution.

    The 16- is the hardest of the 3 1/2 leg group to nail, since the polishing of front leg is the least of the group and it lacks the definitive die markers of the others.

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would you buy either of those coins as a 3 1/2 leg? I am assuming there is a premium attached to the variety...
    I wouldn't.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2024 6:48AM

    Clearly I'm in the minority but I'm still planning to submit this for attribution so I wanted to give my reasons and respond to a few points that were raised in the past few days.
    Yes, this might not be the most abraded leg forum members have ever seen, but a side-by-side comparison with a "normal" 16-D Buffalo shows a significantly weaker left front leg on both of my coins in comparison. Whether its weak enough to get the attribution is up to the PCGS but I've sold several of this variety, including one slabbed AU-53 by ebay, submitted by me, and several raw examples. To date, no complaints and no returns. I figure my batting average is high enough to take a chance with this one. Be assured that when I do get it back, I will post an update here, good or bad for me.

    @ad4400 said:
    I hate to be another naysayer since I truly appreciate your cherry picking abilities, but I am another “ no to either” voice. In this case, neither of the front leg seem terribly abraided. And on the second coin in particular, the die state doesn’t seem as bad as it needs to be for the attribution.
    The 16- is the hardest of the 3 1/2 leg group to nail, since the polishing of front leg is the least of the group and it lacks the definitive die markers of the others.

    Hi Alain, Won't argue the abraded issue here but have to disagree with the die state comment. If anything, the die erosion on the coin I'm planning to submit is much more advanced than on my PCGS coin, particularly on the buffalo's belly and back, and possibly even on the AU 58 example in CoinFacts. Also think its more eroded on the obverse. The strike on my raw coin appears far stronger than my 58, which may have misled you. The raw coin has all the markers of the 3HL, erosion on the Indian's neck, a die crack from the base of the 6 to the 1, extreme die erosion on all the relevant parts of the reverse and a filled D mintmark equidistant from the E of FIVE and the C of Cents.

    @ChrisH821 said:
    Would you buy either of those coins as a 3 1/2 leg? I am assuming there is a premium attached to the variety...
    I wouldn't.

    Hi Chris, Let me answer your question this way. I have a fairly large assortment of varieties in my Buffalo nickel collection doubled dies, 2 feathers, no designer initials, rpms and 3-1/2 legs. 90 percent at minimum have been cherrypicks, the only major varieties I've bought as the variety are the 16/16, 18/7 and 37D 3-leg, as well as a few nice errors .
    So the chances of me paying up for such a coin are pretty slim, since as far as I'm concerned, I already have one, (unless the one i submit gets the attribution and somehow grades higher. Then one will be put up for sale.
    Whatever anyone else decides to do for an attributed coin by a major grading service is up to them.

    Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Without consulting references that specify exactly what constitutes a 3 1/2 leg buffalo, I wouldn't call them 3 1/2 legs unless there was a clear break in continuity of the frontmost leg. I don't see that in either of the OP coins.

  • OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2024 1:48PM

    @messydesk said:
    Without consulting references that specify exactly what constitutes a 3 1/2 leg buffalo, I wouldn't call them 3 1/2 legs unless there was a clear break in continuity of the frontmost leg. I don't see that in either of the OP coins.

    Respectfully. You won't see it either in the Coin Facts Au58. Not claiming this is the greatest variety in the world. Just hoping for a little consistency.

    Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
  • lunagatelylunagately Posts: 34 ✭✭✭

    Give it a shot, I think you get it.

  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2024 5:31AM

    @OnWithTheHunt said:
    Buffalo fans. Will this one attribute?

    No, they lost last night.

    EDIT: Oh sorry, wrong thread!

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2024 2:38PM

    @OnWithTheHunt said:

    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    @FlyingAl said:
    I would also agree that it seems neither deserves the designation. I think you caught a lucky break on the top one.

    I kinda agree with that. Looks like the second Buff has a more diminished front leg. But what the heck, you got the attribute.

    That's also a real bad (light) strike, almost to the extent of calling it an adjustment strike.

    1916 Buffs are for the most part struck well. The die was new and all the Mints had to do was properly coin them.

    Pete

    Every 16-D 3HL I've seen, and I had one attributed AU-53 before the one I've shown, has the same badly deteriorated die. Confused by your reference to well struck 1916 coins.

    The Mint modified the dies in 1916 after the disaster caused by the date wearing away soon after use. I make reference to "well struck" 1916 coins because of the new dies employed.

    Yes, I realize that Denver and San Francisco coins are of a lower quality, and overuse, clashes and failure to properly stress harden the dies were some reasons for this problem.

    Perhaps I was too harsh in my reference to "die adjustment" strikes, but you must agree that there are some real bad specimens strikewise for 1916.

    It just seemed to be a good comparison.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon

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