That's a superb strike, but there's something about the sheen on the surfaces that I don't like. In these photos, the coin looks to me like it's been cleaned or at least overdipped.
Well this is interesting. The strike rivals that of the Satin proof on CoinFacts (CoinFacts says matte finish, but I think it looks like a satin proof rather than matte - the Sandblast proofs of 1921 have a dull surface while the 1921 proof coin on CoinFacts has a sheen that would indicate a Satin Proof). I could also compare it to a lot of other satin proofs that I was able to find in the Heritage sales. The dies, however, don't appear to match. I don't think it is a proof from where I'm sitting, but it is interesting that you can compare the strike to a proof. It's certainly the best struck 1921 Peace I've ever seen for a circulation strike!
It's quite a nice coin. When I first saw it I wanted to say cleaned, but I think it's just a new die pair creating that effect or look. You've got yourself a keeper!
Wow, that strike on a ‘21 is incredible. Not seeing obvious surface issues, I like it as a 64 but one that would fetch a significant premium for the quality of the strike alone.
Coins struck from new dies look a little different than ones struck from worn or repaired dies, a lot more satin finish & lower luster. This one looks awesome.
Great strike but the surfaces have been stripped by over-dipping and wrongfully as the spot on the I in LIBERTY is dip residue that wasn't neutralized the last time dipped turning.
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@FlyingAl said:
Well this is interesting. The strike rivals that of the Satin proof on CoinFacts (CoinFacts says matte finish, but I think it looks like a satin proof rather than matte - the Matte proofs of 1921 have a dull surface while the 1921 proof coin on CoinFacts has a sheen that would indicate a Satin Proof). I could also compare it to a lot of other satin proofs that I was able to find in the Heritage sales. The dies, however, don't appear to match. I don't think it is a proof from where I'm sitting, but it is interesting that you can compare the strike to a proof. It's certainly the best struck 1921 Peace I've ever seen for a circulation strike!
It's quite a nice coin. When I first saw it I wanted to say cleaned, but I think it's just a new die pair creating that effect or look. You've got yourself a keeper!
Interesting you bring that up- yes the PCGS coin is incorrectly classified. PCGS does not recognize Satin proof 1921 Peace Dollars. I have one in an NGC holder and tried to cross it unsuccessfully. I’ve actually got a write up in the works on the 1921 and 1922 proofs. The coin in CoinFacts was correctly in an NGC Satin Proof holder when it sold at Stacks for $69,000
It now resides in a PCGS Matte proof holder
As a result of this auction/crossover, I
requested PCGS to put my NGC Satin into a PCGS Matte holder and they denied me.
Back to the OP coin- nice strike but not a proof- doesn’t have the characteristics.
@airplanenut said:
That's a superb strike, but there's something about the sheen on the surfaces that I don't like. In these photos, the coin looks to me like it's been cleaned or at least overdipped.
I think this as well, could see this coin as a market adjusted 58-62.
Thank you for the comments, which make me feel good about the purchase. My notes as follows:
The coin has a great strike as everyone noted.
The coin is actually nicer in hand than in the pic and a bit whiter.
It graded Unc. Details-Cleaned by our host. I have cracked it out.
When I purchased it as a 58 with an obvious great strike, I thought it might be a proof. As noted by some, it is not.
It is the VAM 1C rusted die variety, and the rusted dies are stronger than most and are apparent on both sides of the coin. It is actually a pretty common variety, so common that neither NGC nor PCGS attributes the VAM 1C to my knowledge.
As many have noted, it has an unusual look to it, which I attribute to the rusted dies, but others may attribute to the dip.
It does have several hairlines horizontally across the cheek and neck, not unlike the proof coin pictured above, but nothing excessive. Everything else you see on the coin is either die rust, or die polish lines (and there are a lot of them).
It has definitely been dipped, but again, not excessively so, IMO. I continue to believe that this coin deserves a straight grade, despite the dip and the several hairlines.
I have researched the variety a bit and found criticisms on line that both grading services regularly grade this variety as knee jerk "cleaned". That research is anecdotal only, and I admit the coin has been dipped and that it a few horizontal hairlines at the cheek and neck. Still, I think it is gradable and I still like it.
I may send it to NGC to see how it fares there, but I am not confident it will do any better. I may also ask Michael Fey about it. If the services would grade it as a VAM 1C, I think it has a shot at a straight grade. It is really a pretty pleasing coin.
I have no intention of selling it until I find one with a similar strike.
Thanks for the opinions which, as always, I appreciate. BTW, the proof above is AMAZING!
Rusted dies definitely give an unusual appearance. Lot of 25-S peace exhibit it.
I have been convinced a coin wasn’t cleaned and sent it in again, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. Last time it took 1 retry and it also got a green bean.
Let me first give a major shout out to Messydesk for putting me in touch with Roger Burdette. Messydesk provided me with Roger's email address, and we communicated separately. As it turns out, Roger happens to be a member of my local coin club, so I was able to meet with him and to show him my 21 Peace. And what a wealth of information he is!
Second, I met Roger at our local club with coin in hand. He seemed intrigued by the Peace Dollar and liked it very much. He agreed with much of my assessment, including that it was very well struck but likely dipped, and that it belonged in a straight graded holder, or at least it was deserving of another try. BTW, it graded MS-63 at NGC.
Third, I informed Roger that it was the VAM 1-C, Rusted Dies variety. He chuckled at that and made a funny response which escapes my memory now ...... something like, no, it's the "smash" or "smutz" variety. Upon further inquiry I learned why. As most Peace Dollar collectors know (and as I now know having acquired Roger's excellent Peace Dollar Book), the 21 Peace was produced in a hurry, so there likely wasn't much time to prepare the dies, let alone for them to rust. Instead, as Roger informed me, the odd surfaces, which look to my eye to be rusted dies, are actually deteriorated coin surfaces due to the high striking pressures used. And while the VAM 1-C is a relatively common variety, almost every single one I see is in a "details" holder due to the "look" of the coin. My particular coin has an awful lot of metal deterioration, but it is unlike anything I normally see from deteriorated dies. Instead, under high magnification, it looks like the metal just gave way across the coin. I don't know what causes this type of coin metal failure.
Fourth, Roger advised that the coin was a well struck and early struck coin, though he stopped short of saying it was a first day strike, presumably because that cannot be proven with certainty. Given the strike details, I believe it was struck very early in the process and likely on the first day when striking pressures were highest resulting in many failed dies and an almost collapsing, deteriorating coin surface.
Fifth, I was disappointed with the PhotoVision Plus photos since they do not accurately show the strike or quality of the coin. the TrueView provides a much more accurate depiction of the coin and of the strike.
Finally, I want to thank Roger Burdette for the assistance and recommendation to send the coin in to NGC. I was going to do it anyway, but his opinion sure helped. I also have since purchased several of his books, including his Peace Dollar book, through Whitman, in softback, as well as his book entitled from Mine to Mint-photo attached. These are well researched and informative. All in all, this was a wonderful purchase and experience resulting in a coin that I have no interest in selling and resulting in a further commitment to search out Peace Dollars in general and 21 Peace Dollars, specifically.
I am sure I have mis-stated something here, so I will stop now and allow others who know this series better than I do to offer any comments they wish to make.
Congrats on getting it appropriately graded. Still love that coin. Not that it really matters, but they should have given it a star for the strike, since it's not an ordinary MS63 1921 Peace dollar.
I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and agree that "From Mine to Mint" is a great book. I don't like the look of that spot by the I on the obv as it looks almost corrosive and wonder if some conservation is called for?
That’s a sweet 21 Mr. Gumby.
Your right it is interesting to see and compare because the OP’s 21 pretty sweet also.
The satin proof is new info to me. Thanks
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@TPRC our coins are almost like twins except mine is raw. Its hard to find 21 peace with strong strikes. When I saw this one I had to buy it. I wasn't looking for one and never had a 21 before. @jzyskowski Arm is doing better. Range of motion will take time to get back.
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Really nice coin. Roger knows a ton about this series. It is exceptionally rare for him to consider any Peace dollar, but especially the 21, as “well-struck”.
As for the details grade, there’s just something different about the quality of the luster of the 21 that isn’t like the rest of the series. Even in-hand it can be a tough call, but I think the OP’s coin looks a little “glossy” or like the original surfaces are a bit impaired. The NGC photos make it look severely polished. I agree that what looks like hairlines is mostly die-polish lines.
I have a somewhat similar coin that I've submitted once or twice and has come back from PCGS with the "cleaned" designation. Several dealers that I’ve shown it to also think it should be in a straight-grade holder. Maybe it will be, eventually:
I have a hunch that NGC used a LED ring light for that photo - I recognize the results from years ago when I used that lighting for photos. Makes everything just look bad.
@BryceM - That 1921 sure doesn't look cleaned to me.
Several years ago a well known dealer had a 21 Peace in a PCGS Details holder for a good price, maybe around 385$, online. Dealer changed his mind selling it to me, something about taking it with him to the Dallas show and a customer wanted to see it in hand. Minus the spot, it was pretty much the same strike.
To this day I wish I had that coin and could care less about the Details label.
TPRC
Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
That's a superb strike, but there's something about the sheen on the surfaces that I don't like. In these photos, the coin looks to me like it's been cleaned or at least overdipped.
Pretty well-struck and it appears to be an early die state (slightly proof-like).
Maybe MS65.
Good strike, nice coin. Most of them are cleaned so if it’s a straight grade 64 then she’s a beauty. It’s a not a VAM 1F but it might be a 1H.
Well this is interesting. The strike rivals that of the Satin proof on CoinFacts (CoinFacts says matte finish, but I think it looks like a satin proof rather than matte - the Sandblast proofs of 1921 have a dull surface while the 1921 proof coin on CoinFacts has a sheen that would indicate a Satin Proof). I could also compare it to a lot of other satin proofs that I was able to find in the Heritage sales. The dies, however, don't appear to match. I don't think it is a proof from where I'm sitting, but it is interesting that you can compare the strike to a proof. It's certainly the best struck 1921 Peace I've ever seen for a circulation strike!
It's quite a nice coin. When I first saw it I wanted to say cleaned, but I think it's just a new die pair creating that effect or look. You've got yourself a keeper!
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
Wow! Killer strike!! I thought hairlines below the Y in LIBERTY, and again under WE in IGWT... but now I'm not so sure... die polish lines instead??
Very nice... thanks for sharing...
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Wow, that strike on a ‘21 is incredible. Not seeing obvious surface issues, I like it as a 64 but one that would fetch a significant premium for the quality of the strike alone.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Certainly well struck !!
But the obverse hairlines hurt it imo
Overall there’s something odd about the look, can put my finger on what tho
🤷
Coins struck from new dies look a little different than ones struck from worn or repaired dies, a lot more satin finish & lower luster. This one looks awesome.
Beauty of a well struck 21. Congrats.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
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64
I will go with 65CAC
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Great strike but the surfaces have been stripped by over-dipping and wrongfully as the spot on the I in LIBERTY is dip residue that wasn't neutralized the last time dipped turning.
Interesting you bring that up- yes the PCGS coin is incorrectly classified. PCGS does not recognize Satin proof 1921 Peace Dollars. I have one in an NGC holder and tried to cross it unsuccessfully. I’ve actually got a write up in the works on the 1921 and 1922 proofs. The coin in CoinFacts was correctly in an NGC Satin Proof holder when it sold at Stacks for $69,000
It now resides in a PCGS Matte proof holder
As a result of this auction/crossover, I
requested PCGS to put my NGC Satin into a PCGS Matte holder and they denied me.
Back to the OP coin- nice strike but not a proof- doesn’t have the characteristics.
I think this as well, could see this coin as a market adjusted 58-62.
Thank you for the comments, which make me feel good about the purchase. My notes as follows:
Thanks for the opinions which, as always, I appreciate. BTW, the proof above is AMAZING!
Tom
Rusted dies definitely give an unusual appearance. Lot of 25-S peace exhibit it.
I have been convinced a coin wasn’t cleaned and sent it in again, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. Last time it took 1 retry and it also got a green bean.
That is a remarkable Peace dollar... One I would definitely keep as a collector specimen. Cheers, RickO
MS65
@TPRC, Thanks for the background on this coin and your thoughts. Personally, I LOVE it!
Now that's a hammered Peace dollar. It does look a little glossy, which is probably why PCGS dinged it. Pity. Still a great coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
UPDATE, SEE BELOW...
Let me first give a major shout out to Messydesk for putting me in touch with Roger Burdette. Messydesk provided me with Roger's email address, and we communicated separately. As it turns out, Roger happens to be a member of my local coin club, so I was able to meet with him and to show him my 21 Peace. And what a wealth of information he is!
Second, I met Roger at our local club with coin in hand. He seemed intrigued by the Peace Dollar and liked it very much. He agreed with much of my assessment, including that it was very well struck but likely dipped, and that it belonged in a straight graded holder, or at least it was deserving of another try. BTW, it graded MS-63 at NGC.
Third, I informed Roger that it was the VAM 1-C, Rusted Dies variety. He chuckled at that and made a funny response which escapes my memory now ...... something like, no, it's the "smash" or "smutz" variety. Upon further inquiry I learned why. As most Peace Dollar collectors know (and as I now know having acquired Roger's excellent Peace Dollar Book), the 21 Peace was produced in a hurry, so there likely wasn't much time to prepare the dies, let alone for them to rust. Instead, as Roger informed me, the odd surfaces, which look to my eye to be rusted dies, are actually deteriorated coin surfaces due to the high striking pressures used. And while the VAM 1-C is a relatively common variety, almost every single one I see is in a "details" holder due to the "look" of the coin. My particular coin has an awful lot of metal deterioration, but it is unlike anything I normally see from deteriorated dies. Instead, under high magnification, it looks like the metal just gave way across the coin. I don't know what causes this type of coin metal failure.
Fourth, Roger advised that the coin was a well struck and early struck coin, though he stopped short of saying it was a first day strike, presumably because that cannot be proven with certainty. Given the strike details, I believe it was struck very early in the process and likely on the first day when striking pressures were highest resulting in many failed dies and an almost collapsing, deteriorating coin surface.
Fifth, I was disappointed with the PhotoVision Plus photos since they do not accurately show the strike or quality of the coin. the TrueView provides a much more accurate depiction of the coin and of the strike.
Finally, I want to thank Roger Burdette for the assistance and recommendation to send the coin in to NGC. I was going to do it anyway, but his opinion sure helped. I also have since purchased several of his books, including his Peace Dollar book, through Whitman, in softback, as well as his book entitled from Mine to Mint-photo attached. These are well researched and informative. All in all, this was a wonderful purchase and experience resulting in a coin that I have no interest in selling and resulting in a further commitment to search out Peace Dollars in general and 21 Peace Dollars, specifically.
I am sure I have mis-stated something here, so I will stop now and allow others who know this series better than I do to offer any comments they wish to make.
Tom
Congrats on getting it appropriately graded. Still love that coin. Not that it really matters, but they should have given it a star for the strike, since it's not an ordinary MS63 1921 Peace dollar.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Those photo vision photos are awful…looks like a completely different coin.
I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and agree that "From Mine to Mint" is a great book. I don't like the look of that spot by the I on the obv as it looks almost corrosive and wonder if some conservation is called for?
Interesting.. I had a 21 Peace with a similar sort of weird appearance that our hosts also labeled as cleaned. Wonder if this was the same situation.. I sold it cheap too.
Just noticed apparently it went through HA after I sold it.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/peace-dollars/silver-and-related-dollars/1921-1-high-relief-cleaning-pcgs-genuine-unc-details-mintage-1-006-473-pcgs-7356-/a/132122-21754.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Congrats on getting yours into a 63 holder.
Collector, occasional seller
Nice coin and interesting story. Thanks for sharing!
K
Nice coin. Heres mine. I want to post it here so I can see yours and mine in close proximity.
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That’s a sweet 21 Mr. Gumby.
Your right it is interesting to see and compare because the OP’s 21 pretty sweet also.
The satin proof is new info to me. Thanks
Learning every day. How is your arm feeling gumby? Better I hope.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Great post @TPRC
@TPRC our coins are almost like twins except mine is raw. Its hard to find 21 peace with strong strikes. When I saw this one I had to buy it. I wasn't looking for one and never had a 21 before.
@jzyskowski Arm is doing better. Range of motion will take time to get back.
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"I have no intention of selling it until I find one with a similar strike."
Good luck with that.
Pete
Very cool!
Roger is always great to communicate with over at the NGC boards.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
I don’t think I have ever seen a stronger strike. Cleaned or not I would treasure that example.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
That NGC photo is horrible. Makes the coin look circulated - I guess getting a photo in focus costs extra.
Really nice coin. Roger knows a ton about this series. It is exceptionally rare for him to consider any Peace dollar, but especially the 21, as “well-struck”.
As for the details grade, there’s just something different about the quality of the luster of the 21 that isn’t like the rest of the series. Even in-hand it can be a tough call, but I think the OP’s coin looks a little “glossy” or like the original surfaces are a bit impaired. The NGC photos make it look severely polished. I agree that what looks like hairlines is mostly die-polish lines.
I have a somewhat similar coin that I've submitted once or twice and has come back from PCGS with the "cleaned" designation. Several dealers that I’ve shown it to also think it should be in a straight-grade holder. Maybe it will be, eventually:
I have a hunch that NGC used a LED ring light for that photo - I recognize the results from years ago when I used that lighting for photos. Makes everything just look bad.
@BryceM - That 1921 sure doesn't look cleaned to me.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
Several years ago a well known dealer had a 21 Peace in a PCGS Details holder for a good price, maybe around 385$, online. Dealer changed his mind selling it to me, something about taking it with him to the Dallas show and a customer wanted to see it in hand. Minus the spot, it was pretty much the same strike.
To this day I wish I had that coin and could care less about the Details label.