Will PCGS answer the Airview challenge?

messydesk

It looks like a new holder design is out ATS that caters to oddly shaped, thin, or fragile coins that wouldn't fare well in their prong holders. Instead of being grabbed at the rim, the coin is sandwiched between two "crystal clear" polymer sheets, which is in turn held together by a normal sized white insert. They can accept coins up to 30 mm in diameter, roughly the size of the 1792 J-13 pattern.

While this seems to be targeting very thin hammered coinage, for which NGC has a larger market share than our hosts, and ancients, this would be great for stuff like California fractional gold and federal issues that get physically or visually swallowed up by prongs (3cs, half dimes, $1 gold, $2 1/2 and $5 Indians).

I'm looking forward to seeing this in person, and I'm curious as to just how invisible it is, especially when being photographed. I'm also wondering what long-term effect it might have on a coin in various environments and how the material will hold up over time. I know PCGS has some sort of plastic sheet sandwich holder for some stuff, but it's not as mainstream as Airview portends.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/holders/airview/

1madman

Looks very neat and useful. First thing that comes to my mind is to encapsulate those Lincoln cents struck on small fragments of planchets

erwindoc

That looks very cool indeed! Wonder what happens when a coin gets rotated in the holder or falls out of alignment another way? Is that even possible with that holder style?

messydesk

@erwindoc said:
That looks very cool indeed! Wonder what happens when a coin gets rotated in the holder or falls out of alignment another way? Is that even possible with that holder style?

All sorts of questions pop into my mind that call for NGC to distribute samples for abusive user testing.

ms71

Given the current wait times, it doesn't seem like an auspicious time to introduce any unnecessary complications.

coinbuf

I love the holder and idea, as you noted it certainly brings up many questions.

msc672

@erwindoc said:
Wonder what happens when a coin gets rotated in the holder or falls out of alignment another way?

I'm pretty sure I know what happens. I'd lose my mind.

TomB

I like it and wonder if perhaps we can use that technology to flatten out bent coinage?

MWallace

@ms71 said:
Given the current wait times, it doesn't seem like an auspicious time to introduce any unnecessary complications.

Their wait times are way, way down. I recently got a Modern submission back in less than a month. Last Fall it was 2 months before the mailing package was even opened.

divecchia

What happens if you drop the holder? Will the coin shift all the way to the side of impact?

I love the look of coin with nothing around, but I would have concerns about it staying in place.

Donato

MasonG

@divecchia said:
What happens if you drop the holder? Will the coin shift all the way to the side of impact?

I don't know but I'd be really surprised if they didn't test this pretty intensively before announcing the product.

BryceM

It's important that this material be completely inert and not facilitate any chemical transference. I'm sure they've done their homework, but I'm a bit squeamish about material that actually touches the surface of the coin.

If they really have worked out the kinks (no discoloration or breakdown over time, heat stable, moisture stable, chemically inert, sufficiently strong to withstand vibration and impacts, allow for accurate photography) it could revolutionize the way we protect and display coins. Being able to actually see the rims is really difficult with almost every system currently on the market.

lilolme

Interesting.
So when will this be changed - used by NGC when appropriate And It cannot be requested.
And what if someone does Not want it for some reason. Can they request it not be used.
.
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Submission Details
The NGC AirView Holder can accommodate small, fragile and oddly sized coins up to 30 millimeters in diameter. At this time, **the NGC AirView Holder will be used by NGC when appropriate for no additional charge. It cannot be requested. **The NGC AirView Holder is currently available for submissions to NGC's Sarasota headquarters, including bulk submissions.

amwldcoin

@TomB said:
I like it and wonder if perhaps we can use that technology to flatten out bent coinage?

They could do a specialized program that works like braces for teeth!

Coin Finder

I gotta say I do like that look as long as the rims are clear!

BStrauss3

Lighthouse is also offering a new type of "Kointains" holder with similar tech.

GoldenEgg

PCGS already does this or has done this in the past, at least in their large size holders. I received a large submission with many that were like this.

The item can easily move between the sheets if you tap them on the edge. In fact, after being in the mail, the coins/medals within were all over the place. The sheets themselves were wrinkled, which impaired the view of the items as well. Needless to say, because of that and other issues, I cracked all of them out.

Maybe the NGC product will be better.

Maywood

It seems to me that for the type of coinage this will be used on that "seeing the edge" isn't really necessary. If the coins are so thin that this kind of encapsulation is needed is there anything on the edge which needs to be seen?? If you consider small coins such as California fractional Gold, PCGS has always done a better job of encapsulating them than NGC: a larger, clear viewing area vs. those annoyingly long prongs. Granted, this new holder will look better than both options but it serves a very limited and specialized market.

To my way of thinking it solves a problem for NGC, but it's one that they created in the first place with a poorly designed holder for small coins. Further, though it probably sounds like I'm drinking the Koolaid, I don't really see PCGS as "following" anyone, especially NGC with a gimmick like this. PCGS tends to "lead" with much more innovation and useful ideas for the Hobby.

PerryHall

@Maywood said:
It seems to me that for the type of coinage this will be used on that "seeing the edge" isn't really necessary. If the coins are so thin that this kind of encapsulation is needed is there anything on the edge which needs to be seen?? If you consider small coins such as California fractional Gold, PCGS has always done a better job of encapsulating them than NGC: a larger, clear viewing area vs. those annoyingly long prongs. Granted, this new holder will look better than both options but it serves a very limited and specialized market.

To my way of thinking it solves a problem for NGC, but it's one that they created in the first place with a poorly designed holder for small coins. Further, though it probably sounds like I'm drinking the Koolaid, I don't really see PCGS as "following" anyone, especially NGC with a gimmick like this. PCGS tends to "lead" with much more innovation and useful ideas for the Hobby.

What flavor of Koolaid are you drinking? Cherry?

jmlanzaf

@Maywood said:
It seems to me that for the type of coinage this will be used on that "seeing the edge" isn't really necessary. If the coins are so thin that this kind of encapsulation is needed is there anything on the edge which needs to be seen?? If you consider small coins such as California fractional Gold, PCGS has always done a better job of encapsulating them than NGC: a larger, clear viewing area vs. those annoyingly long prongs. Granted, this new holder will look better than both options but it serves a very limited and specialized market.

To my way of thinking it solves a problem for NGC, but it's one that they created in the first place with a poorly designed holder for small coins. Further, though it probably sounds like I'm drinking the Koolaid, I don't really see PCGS as "following" anyone, especially NGC with a gimmick like this. PCGS tends to "lead" with much more innovation and useful ideas for the Hobby.

"Gimmick"?

ricko

I saw the announcement on this product. It is niche packaging, and looks as if it should be effective. Time and usage will certainly tell whether it will be successful. Slab technology, as we know, has changed over time... and will continue. Cheers, RickO

Maywood

Gimmick
noun
1. a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
"it is not so much a program to improve services as a gimmick to gain votes"

Yeah, I called it a gimmick because that's what I think it is. NGC sent out e-mails to all of us(I got one and am not a member) to grab our attention and it worked because we're talking about it. As I said above, it has a very limited appeal and only really solves a problem of their own creation, a poorly designed capsule. JMHO, but NGC would do better if they sharpened their focus on coin grading.

dmwest

perhaps the polymers are "sticky" to each other enough that the coin doesn't slide or maybe they heat the polymers prior to laying?

PerryHall

@Maywood said:
Gimmick
noun
1. a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
"it is not so much a program to improve services as a gimmick to gain votes"

Yeah, I called it a gimmick because that's what I think it is. NGC sent out e-mails to all of us(I got one and am not a member) to grab our attention and it worked because we're talking about it. As I said above, it has a very limited appeal and only really solves a problem of their own creation, a poorly designed capsule. JMHO, but NGC would do better if they sharpened their focus on coin grading.

Most of us would call it an "innovation".

Maywood

And that would be fine, but to my way of thinking it would be drinking the NGC beverage which tends to have a taste I don't care for. What bothers me about the NGC "innovations" is that they aren't well thought out, tend not to be very successful hobby-wide and then are unceremoniously discontinued. Let's be honest, every company that comes along post-PCGS tends to be chasing them and trying to invent the better mousetrap.

MFeld

@Maywood said:
And that would be fine, but to my way of thinking it would be drinking the NGC beverage which tends to have a taste I don't care for. What bothers me about the NGC "innovations" is that they aren't well thought out, tend not to be very successful hobby-wide and then are unceremoniously discontinued. Let's be honest, every company that comes along post-PCGS tends to be chasing them and trying to invent the better mousetrap.

All things considered, I think NGC has done just fine for itself and the hobby.

jmlanzaf

@Maywood said:
Gimmick
noun
1. a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
"it is not so much a program to improve services as a gimmick to gain votes"

Yeah, I called it a gimmick because that's what I think it is. NGC sent out e-mails to all of us(I got one and am not a member) to grab our attention and it worked because we're talking about it. As I said above, it has a very limited appeal and only really solves a problem of their own creation, a poorly designed capsule. JMHO, but NGC would do better if they sharpened their focus on coin grading.

I know what gimmick means.
The prongs have been a source of frequent complaints in this forum and the hobby. Addressing a market concern is not a gimmick.

jmlanzaf

@dmwest said:
perhaps the polymers are "sticky" to each other enough that the coin doesn't slide or maybe they heat the polymers prior to laying?

That would not be a good idea.

Maywood

All things considered, I think NGC has done just fine for itself and the hobby.

Yes, they have and I don't think I said anything to the contrary unless not agreeing with all they've done fits that.

coinbuf

@Maywood said:
All things considered, I think NGC has done just fine for itself and the hobby.

Yes, they have and I don't think I said anything to the contrary unless not agreeing with all they've done fits that.

I think many would consider your previous comment as contrary to what Mark said.

@Maywood said:
And that would be fine, but to my way of thinking it would be drinking the NGC beverage which tends to have a taste I don't care for. What bothers me about the NGC "innovations" is that they aren't well thought out, tend not to be very successful hobby-wide and then are unceremoniously discontinued. Let's be honest, every company that comes along post-PCGS tends to be chasing them and trying to invent the better mousetrap.

And to be fair PCGS has had its share of product flops and receives criticism of its operations too, just not very much of those things here because of the heavy ban hammer.

MFeld

@coinbuf said:

@Maywood said:
All things considered, I think NGC has done just fine for itself and the hobby.

Yes, they have and I don't think I said anything to the contrary unless not agreeing with all they've done fits that.

I think many would consider your previous comment as contrary to what Mark said.

@Maywood said:
And that would be fine, but to my way of thinking it would be drinking the NGC beverage which tends to have a taste I don't care for. What bothers me about the NGC "innovations" is that they aren't well thought out, tend not to be very successful hobby-wide and then are unceremoniously discontinued. Let's be honest, every company that comes along post-PCGS tends to be chasing them and trying to invent the better mousetrap.

And to be fair PCGS has had its share of product flops and receives criticism of its operations too, just not very much of those things here because of the heavy ban hammer.

And from a different post: “MHO, but NGC would do better if they sharpened their focus on coin grading.”

ctf_error_coins

Here is a candidate for the new airview holder ...

Maywood

Let's not turn this into some type of turf war, I simply shared my opinion and other thoughts about NGC. If that's something you need to argue about it won't happen with me.

Kliao

I actually really like the look of the clear area around the coin. Hopefully PCGS will follow suit with their own design of a similar product.

PerryHall

It's cool to see a coin that looks like it's floating in air. That said, I'm also concerned that if the holder gets bumped from the side, the coin will slide or move inside the holder since it looks like that it's only held in place by the friction from the two pieces of flexible plastic that the coin is sandwiched in between. I'm sure this new slab design was thoroughly tested by NGC before it was put into production so my concerns may be ill founded.

Boosibri

Boosibri

Per Jay Turner, PCGS did it first

PerryHall

@Boosibri The coin you showed looks like it shifted in the PCGS slab. Lets hope that the new NGC slab is better than this one.

messydesk

@Maywood said:
It seems to me that for the type of coinage this will be used on that "seeing the edge" isn't really necessary. If the coins are so thin that this kind of encapsulation is needed is there anything on the edge which needs to be seen?? If you consider small coins such as California fractional Gold, PCGS has always done a better job of encapsulating them than NGC: a larger, clear viewing area vs. those annoyingly long prongs. Granted, this new holder will look better than both options but it serves a very limited and specialized market.

To my way of thinking it solves a problem for NGC, but it's one that they created in the first place with a poorly designed holder for small coins. Further, though it probably sounds like I'm drinking the Koolaid, I don't really see PCGS as "following" anyone, especially NGC with a gimmick like this. PCGS tends to "lead" with much more innovation and useful ideas for the Hobby.

Recall that NGC was first with an edge viewable insert, slabbing ancients, use of the cameo designation (relative to PCGS), deciding that a coin could grade 70, and probably other stuff. PCGS was first in other cases. Both grading service lead and follow each other, and that's a good thing.

Top50SetBuilder

@messydesk said:

@Maywood said:
It seems to me that for the type of coinage this will be used on that "seeing the edge" isn't really necessary. If the coins are so thin that this kind of encapsulation is needed is there anything on the edge which needs to be seen?? If you consider small coins such as California fractional Gold, PCGS has always done a better job of encapsulating them than NGC: a larger, clear viewing area vs. those annoyingly long prongs. Granted, this new holder will look better than both options but it serves a very limited and specialized market.

To my way of thinking it solves a problem for NGC, but it's one that they created in the first place with a poorly designed holder for small coins. Further, though it probably sounds like I'm drinking the Koolaid, I don't really see PCGS as "following" anyone, especially NGC with a gimmick like this. PCGS tends to "lead" with much more innovation and useful ideas for the Hobby.

Recall that NGC was first with an edge viewable insert, slabbing ancients, use of the cameo designation (relative to PCGS), deciding that a coin could grade 70, and probably other stuff. PCGS was first in other cases. Both grading service lead and follow each other, and that's a good thing.

Don’t forget the star

derryb

will NGC offer a guarantee that the clear film will not discolor or loose it's clearness over time?

coinhack

I bought this one a few months ago. It appears to be the same technology they have described. The coin was off center when I got it. I tapped it pretty hard on the palm of my hand, hard enough to rotate a coin in a regular holder and it did not move. Seems pretty solid.

stockdude_

Looks like a good idea to me. PCGS will follow if it is successful at NGC. They were also first with prong holders I believe? And modern grading?

jmlanzaf

@dmwest said:
perhaps the polymers are "sticky" to each other enough that the coin doesn't slide or maybe they heat the polymers prior to laying?

That would not be a good idea. > @derryb said:

will NGC offer a guarantee that the clear film will not discolor or loose it's clearness over time?

Do the services guarantee that the current slabs won't?

PerryHall

@jmlanzaf said:

@dmwest said:
perhaps the polymers are "sticky" to each other enough that the coin doesn't slide or maybe they heat the polymers prior to laying?

That would not be a good idea. > @derryb said:

will NGC offer a guarantee that the clear film will not discolor or loose it's clearness over time?

Do the services guarantee that the current slabs won't?

The way I see slabs getting tossed around at coin shows by coin dealers, I can't believe any sane slabbing company would guarantee the long term condition of their slabs. I don't think these new airview slabs would survive for very long being locked in a car sitting in the summer sun.

jmlanzaf

@PerryHall said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@dmwest said:
perhaps the polymers are "sticky" to each other enough that the coin doesn't slide or maybe they heat the polymers prior to laying?

That would not be a good idea. > @derryb said:

will NGC offer a guarantee that the clear film will not discolor or loose it's clearness over time?

Do the services guarantee that the current slabs won't?

The way I see slabs getting tossed around at coin shows by coin dealers, I can't believe any sane slabbing company would guarantee the long term condition of their slabs. I don't think these new airview slabs would survive for very long being locked in a car sitting in the summer sun.

Depends on what the polymer is. Some are quite heat resistant.

Maywood

The bigger heat problem will come from collectors/dealers who photograph these types of holders, leaving the light source quite close to the holder for an extended time. It doesn't take long. Another thing is how tightly the coin is held: coins with no rims or high relief will be subject to friction.

Stingray63

I would literally need to see it in hand. The one thing I would be concerned with is if the coin eventually moves around and doesn't stay centered. I already dislike seeing coins turned in their holders but hey, that's just me.

Rexford

I think they’re neat. Mine haven’t moved around so far.

PerryHall

@Stingray63 said:
I would literally need to see it in hand. The one thing I would be concerned with is if the coin eventually moves around and doesn't stay centered. I already dislike seeing coins turned in their holders but hey, that's just me.

It's not just you. I imagine almost every collector want their coins centered and straight in their holders.

messydesk

@Rexford said:
I think they’re neat. Mine haven’t moved around so far.

They are neat! Looks like they sandwich is invisible in these photos. Other questions that come to mind:

• Does the sandwich eventually "stick" to the coin enough to raise concern upon removal?
• Does it hide fine surface defects the way thumbing a coin does?
• Does it interact with any PVC or other stuff on the coin's surface to cause Bad Things to happen faster?
• Would it permit safe encapsulation of peeling laminations?
• Does the sandwich put too much pressure on super-thin coins like medieval bracteates?
• What types of HALT testing was done and what were the results? (Yeah, I know this won't be shared.)

I'm glad our hosts haven't poofed this thread for saying nice things about a competitor. Of course, maybe it's just because it's the weekend.