Another neat new variety - Mexico 1809 TH/HJ over-assayer *update*

TwoKopeiki

Bought these two from different sources today. Usually not the look or grade I would go for, but both appear to be a new variety undocumented in Yonaka or Calbeto. The example of this reverse die shows the vertical legs of the undertype "H" clearly, pointing to a TH/HJ over-assayer variety. Fired off a note to Brad and will share his thoughts. If we agree, i'll send the MS61 coin back to our hosts to create a new PCGS# and get it properly attributed, upsetting existing variety collectors by introducing yet another new registry slot

What makes this one odd is that it was commonly understood that the assayer progression was TH (Tomas Butron y Miranda & Enrique Buenaventura Azorin) and then HJ (Enrique Buenaventura Azorin & Joaquin Davila Madrid) as can be seen by numerous dates (1809-1811) with HJ/TH over-assayer reverse die(s) used. There haven't been a single HJ/TH documented prior to these two examples. I guess it is possible that in a transition year 1809 when the TH -> HJ switch happened, something required the creation of another TH reverse die while all new dies were already created with the new HJ assayer initials.

Neat.

PCGS MS61:

Second example:

bosox

Varieties are neat.

TwoKopeiki

Already got a response from Brad:

Those two examples, in particular the second coin, really do help pin that odd over-assayer down. I had one photo of this die before, but it was not great quality and I wanted another example to back it up. Thanks much for bring those two to my attention.

Abuelo

Will wait for the new edition... Thanks for making my brand new book, obsolete

Abuelo

BTW, cool coins!

TwoKopeiki

@Abuelo said:
Will wait for the new edition... Thanks for making my brand new book, obsolete

Anytime

Boosibri

Exciting find and two in one day!

TwoKopeiki

@Boosibri said:
Exciting find and two in one day!

Thanks! I've often wondered about things like that, too. Sometimes you go years without seeing a particular coin and sometimes you get multiple hits in the same day / week. If you're new to the series, as I was about 10 years ago when i first ran into this phenomenon, this can really skew your understanding of scarcity. Back then I found a couple of examples of a rare variety and, after assuming the documented rarity rating was outdated, ended-up selling both with hopes of finding better examples. Have not seen another example of that particular variety since.

JohnnyCache

Congratulations on your discovery and the acquisition of two examples, very well down.
Things like this, though they may not occur often, really can add new fire into your "collecting" belly.
It's also really nice that Brad is so approachable as well. I had reached out to him maybe a year or so ago with a previously unlisted overdate question, he was very helpful and is a generally nice guy.

TwoKopeiki

@JohnnyCache said:
Congratulations on your discovery and the acquisition of two examples, very well done.

Thank you!

It's also really nice that Brad is so approachable as well. I had reached out to him maybe a year or so ago with a previously unlisted overdate question, he was very helpful and is a generally nice guy.

Unlisted overdate? Do share!

JohnnyCache

@TwoKopeiki said:

@JohnnyCache said:
Congratulations on your discovery and the acquisition of two examples, very well done.

Thank you!

It's also really nice that Brad is so approachable as well. I had reached out to him maybe a year or so ago with a previously unlisted overdate question, he was very helpful and is a generally nice guy.

Unlisted overdate? Do share!

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OK, here it is.

Just please keep in mind that I take pretty bad pictures, so just know that it is much clearer, and easier to see, in hand.

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JohnnyCache

@TwoKopeiki

Here is another example as found searching past auctions.

Abuelo

@JohnnyCache but without the cud on the 5?

JohnnyCache

@Abuelo said:
@JohnnyCache but without the cud on the 5?

@Abuelo
True, but even Brad had not previously seen an example with a cud as he mentioned in our correspondence.
I, myself, have never come across another, either in person or in pictures, that show a cud.
So it is a bit strange.
Would you have any ideas or speculation?

TwoKopeiki

That definitely looks like a 6/5. Nice find!

Abuelo

@JohnnyCache no clue. But very interesting.

TwoKopeiki

PCGS agreed:

First one of this variety certified by either service. I mean other than calling it Calico-1309 (which is actually the previously known HJ/TH variety) - kudos to the graders!

bidask

wowee !