This thread is related to the gold 1 oz coin bought at a estate sale for $25
jdimmick
Posts: 9,602 ✭✭✭✭✭
I had the same thing happen to me years ago in the old shop. Guy comes in, shows me a 1 oz Proof Gold American eagle, says he bought it for like 50 bucks at a yard sale. I forgot what gold was at the time, maybe 1100. I told him what a score. Bought it for a 1k or so I. 2 weeks later , guy came back with another gold coin says he found it at a good deal at another sale.
Fast forward to like 2 weeks later, get a visit from the homicide detective , looking for this guy that had been coming in, come to find out he didn't find them at a yard sale , he was caught by the owner in the process of stealing gold, coins and guns from his house, apparently, they were old work buddies. Anyway, the guy killed him after the tussle, the guy then tried to burn the victims body in a pile of leaves to cover it up. They traced the guns when he took them to a pawn shop to get rid of them, and the rest is history. Morale of the story, sometimes there is more involved than somebody getting a steal of a deal , (not saying that is this case, but thought I mentioned it)
Comments
Did you have to give the coin back or any profits from the sale to the detectives?
And you believed his tale — not once, but twice?
Some people just have a knack for finding stuff like this.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Guess you never know who can trust, including a coworker. As for the post from the other thread, I could see a narrow chance of scoring a gold coin for a nominal amount. Two questions remain, is the guy being straight with us and is the coin authentic?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I didn’t reply to the negativity of some. But it’s true. The person who sold it to me was 17-18 years in age. And I was convinced he wasn’t in charge of the sales. I got nervous sorta that his mom would come near us to intervene. Because she probably A: didn’t want that brought outside. But in the end, since it was. I'm convinced she thought it was comparable to the cheap $5-10 proof sets you see sitting at pawnshops collecting dust
But, the irony is. A single mother wrote in sharpie on a sign “everything must go” “estate / moving sale”. And if she would’ve researched or held off on having it on the table. Then she could’ve sold the coin only and skipped the DVDs, flashlights, old gym equipment etc.
Which also reminded of when this guy in the city I live in. Found an early 2000s MLB team diamond encrusted ring at a yard sale a few years ago. Sometimes people rush things and pass off something of value that seems to good to be true. But anyways I rest my case. And at the end of the day “anything you can think of has or probably will happen”
Wow......
Last comment I’ll make but. The moment I started inspecting the box etc. I asked why the certificate of authenticity was laminated. And the kid said “I don’t know my grandpa would laminate birthday cards and newspaper clippings” and once I heard that I knew I scored sorta but even still I went to the local pawnshop for a second opinion.
To comment above, yes I had to turn over the items I got from the guy to the police, never saw them again. The family members claimed the coins. (which they had every right too)
the lamination is not far fetched, I have had collections come in the past , not necessarily gold coins, but coa's from various commem's, and other coins laminated before.
And I might add: In this case, I think you just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Several of my customers truly stumble on to deals like this at times, I never seem too.
"The person who sold it to me was 17-18 years in age. And I was convinced he wasn’t in charge of the sales. I got nervous sorta that his mom would come near us to intervene. Because she probably A: didn’t want that brought outside."
You had a chance to pass an integrity test today and you failed. Tomorrow is a new day you could try to recover a little bit of your integrity by returning it and explaining to the mom what she has. If she is having to move with kids she needs the money.
Well It’s not like I paid for the coin with counterfeit money. And the cool part is. The profit I’ll make from selling it for it’s melt value. Will go into one badass $1500+ graded coin of my choice. Which will also be my first graded coin as a newer collector. 🧐😇
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.
Almost as easy as taking candy from a baby.
The guy takes good pictures.
I don't know what is worse---ripping off a coin seller or coming here to brag about it expecting to be praised.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
We all seek to buy low and to sell high. Using the 1 ounce gold coin that was bought for $25 as an example:
What is the dollar amount or percentage of value that separates a good score from ripping someone off? Where should an honest buyer draw the line?
Does it matter if the seller is setting the low ball price?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Very well said. Thank you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It matters if the seller is setting the price, but by his own admission, iit's not clear the kid who sold it was actually the owner and empowered to sell it.
This could be viewed as outright theft. The one kid selling the coin from under mom's nose to the benefit of the second kid.
Admittedly, there are grey areas regarding a good score vs. ripping someone, as well as whether it matters if the seller is setting the price. In my opinion, however, in the scenario described, there was no such grey area.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you were feeding a starving child that might mitigate the theft. Since you are only feeding your ego, it just makes the theft look worse.
You might take some of that money and buy a couple books so you aren't clogging up the forum with pocket change.
He could just say he had a change of heart and did the right thing ( by bringing it back ) I will never know the truth other than ... what is ... is.
Doesn't what is being sold make a difference? For example a rare esoteric token versus an AGE with a small buy/sell spread that's easily flipped.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I think so and the same goes for the comparative knowledge level of the two parties. In this case, if the buyer had been as clueless as the seller, I’d feel very differently about the transaction.
One last thing - the seller might have been under the legal age to have made a binding contract for sale of the item.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is a good question. I believe this is an ethical situation. There is a difference between a good buy and knowingly taking advantage of someone.
@MFeld said:
I think so and the same goes for the comparative knowledge level of the two parties. In this case, if the buyer had been as clueless as the seller, I’d feel very differently about the transaction.
I could not agree more with this statement ... and I believe most here understand that.
Based on the buyer's comments it seems the kid was not the actual owner, was underage, and was selling something he wasn't supposed to be selling. And the buyer knew or suspected all of this.
Very troubling and arguably illegal.
In NYS it would be illegal. A 17-year-old can't even sell his own property. In this case, it was an estate. Unless the 17-year-old was the heir, it was stolen property.
That's why I like to believe in karma. Hopefully, the universe rewards and punishes people appropriately.
@Jimnight said:
Right. It's more about making sure someone understands what they are doing. Paying $25 for a $1000 coin is not inherently unethical; it totally depends on circumstance. If a seller offers a $1000 coin for $25, and the buyer says "You don't want to do that, it's a $1000 coin" then whatever happens after is not taking advantage. People do weird stuff - maybe they just want it gone, maybe something else. Whatever, as long as you're dealing with an informed adult who seems rational.
That isn't the story told - there's a minor who acted in a way that should cast doubt on intent. First, business transactions with minors are subject to much more scrutiny because they're presumed to not know what they're doing. Second, the instant someone acts in a way that seems off, an ethical person either asks more questions or simply says no thanks.
I don't understand or get it...other than greed..
if the person selling it was suspect due to age or whatever, even if a sign is posted everything must go and you don't question the sale, the price, the environment the sale is taking place in or even just to pointing out its true value to the sale organizer, how do you not consider it a form of theft.
Especially if a kid is selling it and looks nervous because mommy is close by.
I guess what is where integrity comes into play. I for one would make sure the seller is aware that it is gold, solid gold and then ask if they are sure about the price and may want to reconsider,. If it is a kid selling it, I don't giver a crap, I am calling the cops to make sure it was not stolen.
But then again, I am notoriously honest.
Rule 1: Rule 1, when you are in a hole, stop digging.
Rule 2: If you can rip $1700 coins for $25, don't post parking lot debris as SPECIAL SUPERTASTIC RARATIES worth billions for comments.
It’s not an issue of being praised or bragging. I paid $25 to secure me an astronomical profit and build more profit with my funds on coins that I don’t have any attachment to. While picking up the coins I will be attached to and want to keep in my collection. I didn’t commit any crime, so. As far as being ethical goes. Well call me a pos, but. I care more about money gained rather than person(s) I’ll never see again or don’t know. I’m just being honest though. I know there is negative criticism. But I don’t have anything bad to say about anyone or their responses.
You have an opportunity to do the right thing, please take it. I think you will find the appreciation from the mom more rewarding and valuable than the possible profit score over the long run.
Perhaps you're being honest here, but it sounds as if you acted in a highly unethical fashion. The former isn't nearly as significant as the latter.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I hope that the forum can set an example and expectation for future readers of these threads; it is unequivocally wrong and unethical to take advantage of others who know little of coins or precious metals.
Maybe there can be grey areas as discussed, but this specific example is not ambiguous.
My Gold Type Set
Actually, if the kid who sold it to you is 17, you might very well have committed a crime.
my parking lot debris pennies or any other coin isn’t embarrassing for me to post. A worthless coin that might turn out to be worth face value i still I can admire. I got interested in this hobby bc whether it is circulated thru many people or lays on the sidewalk. The life of a coin can tell a story and you’ll never know who it ends up with. But anyways nobody will upset me with their criticism. If talking s*** helps you relieve stress etc. Well.. I hope you enjoy yourself lol.
LOL. Actually, that's a good attitude to have, especially amid the curmudgeons on this board.
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It's not just NYS. Most states prevent minors from entering into legal contracts without the consent or knowledge of their parents. A sale of a good or service is a contract even if no written agreement exists.
Yes, and the postings on this board will clearly be seen as statements of intent to defraud, compounding the potential legal difficulties. The buyer should do himself a favor, return the coin and refund the money. It's the right thing to do.
Sorry jdimmick
Sorry you got sucked in.
Single mother who just lost her father probably doesn't need the money that badly anyway.
What goes around, comes around, bank on it.
The ethical discussions on this thread are interesting and important. The gray areas especially. Ignoring the present situation above involving unknowing minors, here’s a couple scenarios that I would like some opinions on. Say you go to a flea market and an antiques dealer is selling an 1854-S half eagle for $500. He obviously isn’t knowledgeable about coins, but at least has a sense of the potential value of a generic half eagle. Is it unethical to purchase at $500 and be on your way without mentioning your understanding of its rarity? What if you see the same coin at a garage sale mounted to a necklace being sold for $30 because the (adult) seller does not know it is gold? What is the acceptable move? Do you inform the seller that it is gold and offer melt value? Does that make up for omitting the information that it is a hugely valuable rarity?
Cherry picking is fun, but there really seems to be a gray area as to when it is ethical to cherrypick. My post is not intended to comment on the $25 garage sale scenario discussed in this thread which is a separate issue altogether. Let me know your thoughts on the 1854-s scenarios above.
I'm getting ready to block my first member of any of the four forums I'm on. If I do, will I still see he/she has posted a new discussion?
And thus my earlier questions to stimulate thought and discussion:
What is the dollar amount or percentage of value that separates a good score from ripping someone off? Where should an honest buyer draw the line?
Does it matter if the seller is setting the low ball price?
I agree, given the circumstances surrounding the specific transaction under discussion, It appears that the buyer let greed trump ethics. But I have to wonder, or there others among us who would have done the same thing short of bragging about it?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
That would be my supposition, but I'm not a lawyer and I'm in NYS, so that's the only one I can speak to with authority.
In some cases that would be right and in many others, completely wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes, you will still see the discussion.
My opinion mirrors that of many others here. You said that the kid wasn’t sure about selling it and you were hoping to get the deal done before a responsible adult showed up. That’s not the same as cherrypicking a pawn shop or dealer. Don’t expect many attaboys when you brag about something like that. Your responses in this thread tell us all we need know.
I don't think there is any way to be definitive about it in some of the cases you mention.
If you are buying from a dealer, the assumption is that the dealer SHOULD know and it is fair game. But, one could argue that just slapping "dealer" on your chest doesn't guarantee that you are in an informed position. So, as a matter of ethics, it is still arguable that you should disclose, though many on this board would disagree.
If you are buying at a garage sale, then you are in the superior position and many more people would argue that you should disclose.
But it is complicated. For example, suppose I'm buying a pile of jewelry and one piece is 14k gold. If we decide that I should disclose, then what becomes the fair market value?
If I buy a $100 widget for $80 is that close enough? $50? $40?
It's complex...except in the case of the minor selling goods he doesn't own.