Home U.S. Coin Forum

What would cause this to happen to the denticles?

ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 11, 2018 5:08PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Not my auction. I thought this would make some educational discussion....

Is it simply just a soft strike and dies needing adjustment or something else?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1856-Seated-Half-Dime-PCGS-MS-64-CAC-Nice-Type-Coin/113421336694

Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

Comments

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Weak strike. Not unusual for little Seated Liberty half dimes.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Die wear. As the dies were used to strike more and more coins, the details got weaker. Ms. Libertry’s head is not that sharp either.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't believe for one second this effect is caused by "die wear."

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I thought that effect was the result of a deteriorating hub, which is why they made a new one in 1859.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • UltraHighReliefUltraHighRelief Posts: 2,289 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2018 5:32PM

    I own the 1856 5c currently being discussed. 1856 half dimes are very scarce with a full strike, and on this example the denticles are almost completely flattened.

    From the 1856 half dime page on PCGS Coinfacts - (Ron Guth)

    Fully struck examples are surprisingly scarce. Many examples show weakness on the denticles. On some examples, the denticles are so flat as to be almost non-existent.

    Even the below coins - PCGS MS-67 & MS-66 respectively, have very weak denticles.

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You can call them dentils, and you can call them denticles, but you doesn't have to call them denticals.- Raymond J. Johnson Jr.

    I think there has to be something more beyond just a weak strike. The strike on the rest of the coin - the stars, the lettering, etc. is not bad, so an overall weak strike would show up somewhat on the rest of the surface.

    Perhaps it was an over-basined die. You can see flow lines on many examples through the dentil area. Similarly, perhaps it was a deteriorating hub as the Capt points out. Did they even hub the dentils in 1856? I thought not but not really sure.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ve seen it. My $2.50 liberty has is somewhat. Not as dramatic, but from 6:00 to 9:00 on mine:

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,431 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1856 half dime in my collection has some denticles, but far from all of them.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's what @MrHalfDime wrote on this subject in a 2006 Forum post:

    When I first opened the image you posted of the half dime with weak/non-existent dentils, it opened with only the top 2/3 of the image visible on the screen, requiring me to scroll down to see the rest of the obverse. My first reaction was "It must be an 1856". The hubs for 1856 were so worn from repeated use, there were virtually no dentils remaining, so all coins struck from the working dies looked similar to the one you pictured. Indeed, a rare 1856 half dime would be one with full dentils throughout 360°. In nearly twenty-five years of looking, I have found just 3 1856 half dimes with full dentils. In the following year, 1857, the die shop 'retouched' the master dies to improve the dentils and other features with little success, leading to a complete design change in 1859. The 1856 half dimes are essentially ignored, as it is a high mintage year with little of interest happening in terms of 'varieties'.

  • jtlee321jtlee321 Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The look is certainly odd. What are the diameters on those 1856 Half Dimes? I'm speaking from absolutely no knowledge of the series, but they have a broadstruck look. Makes me wonder if the collars used were slightly larger in diameter than they were supposed to be. The rims look very weak which is another reason I bring up the possible oversized collar issue. Is that even possible?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suspect Ronyahski is one a more interesting track.

    Also, the 1859 design change was part of the Director's plan to introduce a revised set of designs built around the wreath concepts from pattern halves. The Sec of Treasury squashed this as being too much in the present political climate.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2018 4:34PM

    @yosclimber said: "Here's what @MrHalfDime wrote on this subject in a 2006 Forum post:

    When I first opened the image you posted of the half dime with weak/non-existent dentils, it opened with only the top 2/3 of the image visible on the screen, requiring me to scroll down to see the rest of the obverse. My first reaction was "It must be an 1856". The hubs for 1856 were so worn from repeated use, there were virtually no dentils remaining, so all coins struck from the working dies looked similar to the one you pictured. Indeed, a rare 1856 half dime would be one with full dentils throughout 360°. In nearly twenty-five years of looking, I have found just 3 1856 half dimes with full dentils. In the following year, 1857, the die shop 'retouched' the master dies to improve the dentils and other features with little success, leading to a complete design change in 1859. The 1856 half dimes are essentially ignored, as it is a high mintage year with little of interest happening in terms of 'varieties'."

    Thanks for the post from the past. Please ask Mr. Half dime to explain how ANY coins could exist with full denticals if they were not on the worn hub used to make the dies.

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    @Insider2 said:
    @yosclimber said: "Here's what @MrHalfDime wrote on this subject in a 2006 Forum post:

    When I first opened the image you posted of the half dime with weak/non-existent dentils, it opened with only the top 2/3 of the image visible on the screen, requiring me to scroll down to see the rest of the obverse. My first reaction was "It must be an 1856". The hubs for 1856 were so worn from repeated use, there were virtually no dentils remaining, so all coins struck from the working dies looked similar to the one you pictured. Indeed, a rare 1856 half dime would be one with full dentils throughout 360°. In nearly twenty-five years of looking, I have found just 3 1856 half dimes with full dentils. In the following year, 1857, the die shop 'retouched' the master dies to improve the dentils and other features with little success, leading to a complete design change in 1859. The 1856 half dimes are essentially ignored, as it is a high mintage year with little of interest happening in terms of 'varieties'."

    Thanks for the post from the past. Please ask Mr. Half dime to explain how ANY coins could exist with full denticals if they were not on the worn hub used to make the dies.

    They would go back to the master die and make a new hub.

    I think MrHalfDIme may have erred on one word. It would make sense if he meant to say that the master die (not hub) was so worn, there were no dentils remaining. As he posits, they retouched the the master die in 1857- that did not work- so they made a new master die in 1859. He is suggesting that in 1856 the master die was shot and they tried to fix it, to no avail.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I still wonder where the three fully struck coins came from? Proof die?

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018 2:05AM

    Partway into 1857, the working hub was definitely changed.
    When I make my date position diagrams, for 1841-1856, the pendant is above the right edge of a dentil, and for most of 1857 and all of 1858, it's over the center of a dentil, and the base became more wavy.
    Also stars 3 and 8 are slightly different, and the V-shaped hub defect between stars 10 and 11 disappeared.
    As for whether it was the master die or master hub that was changed, I don't know.

    The dentils in 1857 and 1858 are generally improved over the 1856, but still vary greatly in their flatness.



    [PCGS CoinFacts proof coin photos]
    About half of the 1856 proof half dimes have nearly normal proof dentils, and half are somewhat flat on the left obverse side.
    This suggests several possibilities to me:

    • insufficient pressure when creating the dies from the working hub
    • insufficient striking pressure / too wide die gap

    but these are just theories.

    @MrHalfDime has not logged into the forum since mid-October, so I will try to check up on him.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RE: "insufficient striking pressure / too wide die gap"
    Dies were convex. When perfectly basined (equal radius and equal depth), and matched with an ideally formed planchet, the center and denticles made first contact with the planchet. This prevented excess spread of the planchet, formed the coin rim, and created the shock wave that moved metal into the die.

    Mint Coining Department and Engraving Department Officers and foremen were not idiots. They had been doing this kind of work for decades, and knew exactly how to fix "missing denticles" if they wanted to do it.

    Now, try going back and rethinking how the illustrated coins could be made. Also, were the "good" proofs and "weak" proofs from the same dies?

    ;)

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, all the 1856 proof half dimes were from the V-2 die pair.
    Both Valentine and Breen noted this, and my checking of the CoinFacts photos confirms it.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just as an idle speculation, could the Proof die have been hubbed in an earlier year and set aside, undated, for future Proof production because it had been well hubbed?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More idle speculation in the interest of considering fresh ideas. It does seem odd that both hubs would deteriorate the same way. What would happen if the die blanks were improperly machined prior to being hubbed. Let's say that the angle of the cone was too steep. Could this have caused the denticles and rim to have formed poorly.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭


    [1856 MS-65 non-proof]

    [1856-O MS-65 non-proof]
    [PCGS CoinFacts photos]

    @CaptHenway said:
    If the hubs were defective in 1856, what about this 1856-O?

    Excellent point.
    Wish I had thought of that, given that I made an 1856-O attribution guide!
    I checked all the known 1856-O dies and all have "normal" dentils except for possibly the V-11u where they are somewhat flat.
    (A good answer will be helpful when I make the 1856 guide).

    So this suggests a couple of possibilities:
    1. The same people made the Philadelphia and New Orleans dies, but striking in Philadelphia was subpar.
    2. Different people made the Philadelphia and New Orleans dies (seems unlikely), with the Philadelphia dies made with inferior techniques or materials (also seems unlikely).

    This line of reasoning could be extended to compare the two mints for 1857 and 1858.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps the 1856-O dies were made in one batch in late 1855 so they could be shipped there to be on hand when the New Year came, and the 1856-P dies were made at a later date and poorly executed. I don't think we can blame the hubs anymore.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One more idle thought for consideration: If the planchets were improperly upset at the Philadelphia Mint in 1856, that might have affected the striking. How are the reeded edges on the 1856-P and 1856-O coins?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Isn't it fun thinking outside "accepted knowledge?"

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:

    This coin was used by the famous New York dentist Louis Feucthwanger to test the bite strength of his patients prior to fitting them with full prosthetic dentures. The patient patiently gummed his/her way around the coin and if their "bite" was strong enough, they gradually flattened the denticles. (Which seems appropriate for a dentist's occupation.)

    Feuchtwanger used only the best California platinum and osmium refined as a by-product from native California gold. Prosperous patients could also purchase a special set of mechanical steak chompers that had slicing teeth that could cut the toughest beef with ease. (He eventually switched to iridium when his patients and their dinner guests began dying of osmium tetroxide poisoning.)

    :)

    Gee Roger...........you beat me to it.

    I was gonna say that the coin needed to go see a "Denticust".

    No knowledge here............move along.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018 8:49AM

    Ahhhhh....some nice thinking going on.

    Working dies were made in denomination-batches in November and December for the next year. Usual procedure was to add mintmarks and harden branch mint reverse dies, then pair with an obverse and number them for shipment. Note that all obverse dies or reverse were identical -- if there was a hub defect it would be distributed among all obverse or reverse dies.

    Later, during the year, extra sets of dies would have been made, but also likely in batches -- that was the most efficient way to operate. (Note that the same batch approach was used for all special mint products: proof coins, medals, unless there was some specific order to do otherwise (as in Feb. 1888 when one complete proof set was made).

    Hint: Look at the rim. Compare to others. As the Capt mentioned, planchets were given an upset angle, height, and diameter before striking.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭✭✭

    " Usual procedure was to add mintmarks and harden branch mint reverse dies".

    The mintmark application I knew about.

    I always thought (incorrectly, I guess) that dies were shipped and stress hardened at the Mint of use.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Many years ago while at ANACS we got in a "Clock" of off-center silver dollars, one at (roughly) each of the 12 hour positions. Many if them were identifiable by date or Mint, and since each had an unstruck area you could see the shapes of the upsettings at the rims on the planchets.

    The New Orleans dollars showed the edge of the unstruck planchet nearly flat, with the bulge on either side very close to the edge. In other words the channel of the upsetting mill was nearly flat. If you look at common N.O. dollars you will see that edge reeding is very long because the solid outer ring of the rim is very high because that is where the bulge fell under the dies. The denticles, on the other hand, tend to be poorly struck because the bulge of the planchet fell further out towards the edge.

    Carson CIty planchets had sharply beveled corners, with the bulge of the planchet closer towards the center of the planchet. Look at a raw common CC dollar and you will see that the edge reeding tends to be short, the solid part of the rim tends to be weak, and the denticles tend to be strong because that is where the bulge met the dies.

    Philadelphia and San Francisco planchets had the bulges better positioned to fill up both parts of the rim, the solid ring AND the denticles.

    The 1856-P Half Dimes show some similarities to coins struck on Type One blanks where the rims of the blanks were not upset at all. Perhaps they just badly screwed up the upsetting of all of the P-Mint planchets that year and that caused the weak denticles on the business strikes.

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • okiedudeokiedude Posts: 643 ✭✭✭

    Interesting to see a lot of these 1856 half dimes. Dentils all characteristically weak, but with definite subtle differences. Th OP's coin has a super weak head, while others have a strong center strike.
    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=1856&_sacat=149930&_sop=16

    BST with: Oldhobo, commoncents05, NoLawyer, AgentJim007, Bronzemat, 123cents, Lordmarcovan, VanHalen, ajaan, MICHAELDIXON, jayPem and more!
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lousy picture but for the record here's mine. Strong denticles starting at 12:00, progressively weakening until they are mush at 9:00.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bump

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018 12:29PM

    I went poking around last night and couldn't find any fully struck dentils for sale.

    It's almost like a "full dentil" example would be the "tough variety" so to speak.

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So last week we "knew" what caused the weak denticles, and this week we do not.

    Oddly enough, this is progress!

    I still want to see some pictures of the edge reeding on the weak denticle coins.

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bump for input.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bump for input

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file