What is this colorful rare error called? ... UPDATED, new Info .... Expert Opinion In

ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited November 13, 2018 9:11AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I know but do you. Look at the coin and figure it out. Will the TYPG's label it as such?

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Comments

  • What is the weight? As it looks like two planchets or bad placement on the RR track.

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Did not weigh it but it would be of normal weight and no trains were involved.

  • I'm at a loss, I just hope nobody lost a thumb at the mint, its got alot of red in it. :)

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 354 ✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    I know but do you. Look at the coin and figure it out. Will the TYPG's label it as such?

    WAG. Possible an off-center triple strike?

    Triple strike because the first strike is the normal looking part of the cent, but the smooshed part looks like the ebb flow of two waves lapping up to the back of Abe’s portrait and the same on the reverse to the southwest of the Monticello.

    My guess is the first strike went fine but during ejection it was struck twice more at 8 o’clock. Then the coin press alarm bells went off and the operator failed to capture the error coin as it went down the coin shoot and ending up in your hands?

    I have no idea. ;)

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 10,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've never seen one and I'm intrigued! Very attractive coin, too!

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 25,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Howdy!

    Thank you all for voting!
  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭

    My first reaction is that it was placed between two pieces of leather and struck with a hammer.

    The only way it could get that look in the Mint is if it were struck by both obverse and reverse dies that were capped, or perhaps a capped obverse die and an unstruck planchet covering the reverse die. Both situations are quite far-fetched, and in either case, I would expect to see a more distinct transition between the first and second strikes.

    Occam's Razor would dictate that the coin was damaged post Mint.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seanq said:
    My first reaction is that it was placed between two pieces of leather and struck with a hammer.

    The only way it could get that look in the Mint is if it were struck by both obverse and reverse dies that were capped, or perhaps a capped obverse die and an unstruck planchet covering the reverse die. Both situations are quite far-fetched, and in either case, I would expect to see a more distinct transition between the first and second strikes.

    Occam's Razor would dictate that the coin was damaged post Mint.

    Sean Reynolds

    I considered that it could be PMD, but there is a term for such a strike and the look of it sure looks like exactly what you would expect to see from the exact amount of pressure that a mint press would produce. A PMD hammer strike would have a different look, IMO.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If genuine (?) - double struck, second strike was off-center and coin was between two planchects?

    Either that or PMD. :o

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    double struck, second strike was off-center and coin was between two planchects? >

    That would be called a "Sandwich Strike" which is what this coin is.

  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭✭

    Bad hair day.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 9:00AM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @seanq said:
    My first reaction is that it was placed between two pieces of leather and struck with a hammer.

    The only way it could get that look in the Mint is if it were struck by both obverse and reverse dies that were capped, or perhaps a capped obverse die and an unstruck planchet covering the reverse die. Both situations are quite far-fetched, and in either case, I would expect to see a more distinct transition between the first and second strikes.

    Occam's Razor would dictate that the coin was damaged post Mint.

    Sean Reynolds

    I considered that it could be PMD, but there is a term for such a strike and the look of it sure looks like exactly what you would expect to see from the exact amount of pressure that a mint press would produce. A PMD hammer strike would have a different look, IMO.

    Are you thinking the second strike is a "ghost strike"? My understanding of that term is when the striking pressure is lower than normal and only small portions of the shallowest areas of the design end up transferring to the planchet.

    The problem with that is that the coin was already struck once, so the metal was already compressed before the second strike. Any second strike with enough pressure to distort the shape of the planchet would be strong enough to leave some relics of the design in the planchet.

    Assuming this coin was really struck (or rather, compressed) by both dies twice, the only way for the second strike to look like your coin is if something was between the die faces and the planchet on both sides.

    Looking closer at your pictures, I see a definite transition in the surface of the second strike - there is an arc on the obverse passing through IN and a matching one on the reverse between UN and the bottom of the O. I would postulate that the arc marks the edge of the object that struck the coin (probably a hammer), and the distortion between that arc and the primary design was caused by material (probably leather) being forced into the surface.

    I would love to hear more opinions, but absent another explanation the coin remains highly suspect to me.

    Sean Reynolds (edited for clarity)

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 354 ✭✭✭

    Revised WAG.

    Brockerage? Operator still failed to capture the error, you got the coin, and now I am here trying to picture how this occured. :o

    Back to more reading.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 20,043 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The only thing I KNOW is that it won't roll when dropped. I had one like it (or similar) when I was a kid and I won more money pitching pennies than I did at my paper route! Since they don't roll they just about stop where pitched and the advantage was mine. I kept it but alas, when I was in the service and parents moved, it was lost.....

    Your's is not mine as mine would have been pre 1955.

    bob :)

    BST deals: Dozens of buys/sells. Will provide a list upon request.
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 547 ✭✭✭

    If it’s real (looks like it may be), a previously struck coin could have been sandwiched between 2 blank planchets and that stack of 3 coins then received a strike out of collar.
    Really unlikely setup, but unlikely stuff does happen over billions of strikes. The mated coins would be really weird also.
    Or it could just have gotten mushed.

    Coin-specific photobucket alternative:
    CollectiveCoin

    Check it out!
  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a double struck cent where the second strike was thru a blank planchet on one side (not both sides)

    Kinda similar, huh?

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And a double struck nickel with a blank on one side (not both sides)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 25,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of the better fake errors as they used imitation planchets rather than the usual struck coins.

    Thank you all for voting!
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 4,375 ✭✭✭✭

    IMHO this error has a 70% being PMD and 30% real unless more facts on this type of coin come to light

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 547 ✭✭✭

    The problem is that without second strike details, you could get the exact effect by smashing a coin between two cent blanks (or just copper discs). For instance, @dcarr could make these at will with his press, and they’d be indistinguishable from a mint product.

    Coin-specific photobucket alternative:
    CollectiveCoin

    Check it out!
  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Triple struck thru a blank on one side (not both)

    Sure looks similar ...

  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 4,375 ✭✭✭✭

    all we can do is guess unless the coin is looked over by experts we will never know if it's a fake or real

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 9:31AM

    @CaptHenway said:
    One of the better fake errors as they used imitation planchets rather than the usual struck coins.

    Could you please elaborate more as I trust your opinion. I realize this could be done outside of the mint with a press and two blanks. The coin has a real look to it to me. Mike Diamond told me that I had a sandwich strike on another (nickel) coin that I use to own but no longer have the photos.

    I am willing to learn if I called this one wrong.

    What would a sandwich strike at the mint look like? Mike D says it a real type of error.

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saw this coin on Ebay over the weekend.

    It looks like another planchet was laying both on
    top of, and below, the struck coin - that would
    explain the expanded design, and as you show,
    and mention, this effect is common on ONE side.

    What bothers me about it is that what are the
    odds that another pair of unstuck planchets were
    laying on top of, and below the struck coin, in
    the Exact areas on both sides, when it was struck
    again? Two additional planchets I could buy into,
    but both in the exact same area obv. and rev.?

    I can't condemn nor confirm it as an error, and
    I'd like to read Mike D.'s explanation.

    Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV.
    Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 42 +-Year PNG Member, and an ICTA Board Member.A full time coin dealer since 1972.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭

    Some points based on the additional images posted:

    1. On the new examples posted to the thread, there is a distinct transition between the initial strike and the indent that is missing from the coin in the OP.

    2. The examples which were struck through other planchets or die caps have far less of the underlying design visible in the multi struck region, and those were all struck through only a single obstruction. The OP's coin would have to be struck through a sandwich of three planchets / die caps, and that additional material thickness should increase the effective pressure and cause even more of the underlying design to be obliterated. The way the rim shows on the entire obverse of the OP's coin is the biggest red flag to me, as the stack of planchets should be under the most pressure there.

    3. The closest example of those posted looks like the nickel, which appears to have been struck through cloth on the reverse. You can see the flattened rim and the more gradual distortion of the underlying design, but you can also see the pattern of the weave and a distinct transition between the first and second strikes.

    I am still not convinced the OP's coin is a Mint error.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 10:04AM

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    And a double struck nickel with a blank on one side (not both sides)

    Disclaimer: I am not an error "expert." Here to learn.

    Will someone explain why there is an impressed image of a strong, squared off rim at the upper right edge of the O/C strike made by a planchet?

    Additionally, I cannot imagine how two planchets could cover both dies on the O/C strike of the OP's coin without human help..

  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 10:17AM

    Without reading everyone else's descriptions, I'd call it "Double Struck, 2nd Strike Off-center by a Late State Die Cap"

    Edit after reading - I think I'm leaning towards PMD, my description doesn't work unless both dies were capped, in which case it would need to be a fully struck coin getting in with the blank planchets (at just the right time) to get this result.

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree, thanks for posting it. Now, how about my question about the nickel?

  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    And a double struck nickel with a blank on one side (not both sides)

    Disclaimer: I am not an error "expert." Here to learn.

    Will someone explain why there is an impressed image of a strong, squared off rim at the upper right edge of the O/C strike made by a planchet?

    Additionally, I cannot imagine how two planchets could cover both dies on the O/C strike of the OP's coin without human help..

    I think the indent was by cloth, not a planchet, and the collar would be able to exert enough force through the cloth to form the squared looking rim you see. I would expect under strong magnification that what looks like a squared rim indent is actually more of a bevel.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My brain hurts, I think I will go gold mining tomorrow.

    The desert clears your thoughts.

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One more thought about perfect placement on error coins. When they make a billion of anything, anything can happen.

    Look at my inventory. Almost every one of my error coins has perfect placement of the error, that is what I look for and that is what I pay up for.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 25,572 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @JBK said:
    double struck, second strike was off-center and coin was between two planchects? >

    That would be called a "Sandwich Strike" which is what this coin is.

    I thought that here you were calling it a sandwich coin made outside the Mint, and I was agreeing with you. Mashed between two blank disks of metal, which I suppose might have been genuine planchets but why waste them when it is easy to punch out round disks of metal.

    Thank you all for voting!
  • OldEastsideOldEastside Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm OK with "Colorful Rare Error"

    Steve

    Promote the Hobby
  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 11:20AM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @JBK said:
    double struck, second strike was off-center and coin was between two planchects? >

    That would be called a "Sandwich Strike" which is what this coin is.

    I thought that here you were calling it a sandwich coin made outside the Mint, and I was agreeing with you. Mashed between two blank disks of metal, which I suppose might have been genuine planchets but why waste them when it is easy to punch out round disks of metal.

    I agree that could be done.

    But, can you tell me what an already struck coin struck again at the US Mint if it were indeed sandwiched between two blank planchets look like? Out of billions of coins struck, is this chain of events possible? Mike D says it does happen. So if it ever happened, then I ask you, what would it look like?

  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @JBK said:
    double struck, second strike was off-center and coin was between two planchects? >

    That would be called a "Sandwich Strike" which is what this coin is.

    I thought that here you were calling it a sandwich coin made outside the Mint, and I was agreeing with you. Mashed between two blank disks of metal, which I suppose might have been genuine planchets but why waste them when it is easy to punch out round disks of metal.

    I agree that could be done.

    But, can you tell me what an already struck coin struck again at the US Mint if it were indeed sandwiched between two blank planchets look like? Out of billions of coins struck, is this chain of events possible? Mike D says it does happen. So if it ever happened, then I ask you, what would it look like?

    Here is how I would picture it: It would have a very thin tab, with no traces of design on either side, and a clear ridge between the single and double struck surfaces. I could also imagine the ridge not being perfectly round, or the center coin could show signs of tearing like a "mushroom cap" error. Basically picture three planchet thicknesses of metal moving between the dies, and how much distortion and oblitertation would result from the added effective striking forces.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2018 11:37AM

    What about the consistent toning?

    Just imagine this is real and happen at the mint way back in 1980, 38 years ago. The toning makes sense.

    So some think this was faked (I am not 100% certain myself that it is real) so IMO it would have been done a long time ago when errors were cheap. If done more recently, methinks the toning would have got screwed up.

    To me, it looks like the mint did it.

  • @Hemispherical said:
    Revised WAG.

    Brockerage? Operator still failed to capture the error, you got the coin, and now I am here trying to picture how this occured. :o

    Back to more reading.

    Cigarette or restroom break. Comes back to room ten min. later and says to himself, everything looks to be working fine to me.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 839 ✭✭✭✭

    Man-made "error" since the image is blurred on both sides. If this was double-struck over another planchet, it would show the second strike on one side. This has been smashed by being sandwiched between two blanks, which could, but would not happen.

    thefinn
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 547 ✭✭✭

    I'm ok with saying the mint did it. But because it's also relatively easy to do outside the mint with an identical result, it likely won't slab.

    Coin-specific photobucket alternative:
    CollectiveCoin

    Check it out!
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seanq said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:
    And a double struck nickel with a blank on one side (not both sides)

    Disclaimer: I am not an error "expert." Here to learn.

    Will someone explain why there is an impressed image of a strong, squared off rim at the upper right edge of the O/C strike made by a planchet?

    Additionally, I cannot imagine how two planchets could cover both dies on the O/C strike of the OP's coin without human help..

    I think the indent was by cloth, not a planchet, and the collar would be able to exert enough force through the cloth to form the squared looking rim you see. I would expect under strong magnification that what looks like a squared rim indent is actually more of a bevel.

    Sean Reynolds

    I disagree. A collar is at the side of the dies. It is a wide donut. I should think that It would never leave a thin, sharp, rim-shape indent into a coin's surface.

  • ErrorsOnCoinsErrorsOnCoins Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    I'm ok with saying the mint did it. But because it's also relatively easy to do outside the mint with an identical result, it likely won't slab.

    This is probably going to be the correct answer.

    I think D carr could do this. I think the mint could do this. How would a TPG tell the difference?

    I do not think this was done in a garage.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 547 ✭✭✭

    Agreed, it has a very convincing look as coming from a high pressure strike. Personally, I think someone found it when it was brand new and put it aside because it looked cool, allowing it to tone. Neat error.

    Coin-specific photobucket alternative:
    CollectiveCoin

    Check it out!
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    a triple struck double die cap

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...that's one of the things it's not.

    Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV.
    Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 42 +-Year PNG Member, and an ICTA Board Member.A full time coin dealer since 1972.
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭✭✭

    indented double strike

    I can not tell from the pics which side the blank was on, maybe obverse?

  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,508 ✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    Agreed, it has a very convincing look as coming from a high pressure strike. Personally, I think someone found it when it was brand new and put it aside because it looked cool, allowing it to tone. Neat error

    I hesitated to mention this, but it has the look of a “Lonesome John” coin. I’m sure Fred knows more about him, I just know that he was an error coin dealer in the 70s and 80s, and I’ve seen many coins in his 2x2 flips with similar toning.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 354 ✭✭✭

    Sorry, OT. What is a “Lonesome John” coin?

    I could google but thought it is better posted here for all to gain insight.

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