What is the preferred way to handle getting ripped off by a board member

Gerard · November 24, 2014 5:12PM

I purchased a lot of $140 FV silver and was told the coins were rough and average G4 but the weight was within spec at 7.6 lbs.

I received the coins and the weight was 7.21lbs and the average grade was AG3.

I immediately contacted the seller and he said he would not take a return even with silver up 30 cents.

In my way of thinking he should take the return and pay for the shipping both ways because the product
was not as described.

Do we want people like this on the board ???

vpr · November 24, 2014 5:22PM

Agreed. If the product is not as described, you should get a full refund and not have to pay shipping costs.

If things dont work out, you should out the member here, so we can put him/her on our ban lists.

Walkerguy21D · November 24, 2014 10:23PM

While I appreciate your dilemma whole heartedly, I would recommend you delete this post and put it
on the main forum. This has the earmarks of becoming a long thread and probably shouldn't be on the BST (even though
the topic was a buy).

Broadstruck · November 24, 2014 11:14PM

<< In my way of thinking he should take the return and pay for the shipping both ways because the product
was not as described. >>

Or make a price adjustment if your keen on keeping it?

claychaser · November 24, 2014 11:59PM

For the AG to G difference, probably hard to quantify as "not as described". But as for the significant actual weight difference, that's a different story and the sellers owes you the difference, IMHO.

Gerard · November 25, 2014 1:05AM

I am not ready to oust him because I am hoping he comes to his senses.
Please leave your opinions in my post so the seller can see that
his actions are not ok with the board members.

CoinWW2 · November 25, 2014 1:36AM

Since this is already at the top..

If you paid with paypal- dispute the payment.

All that weight misadvertised is plain wrong. The seller should definitely take it back, as it's their fault for telling false information about the silver weight.

Bayard1908 · November 25, 2014 1:39AM

I wouldn't characterize this as "getting ripped off." You got $140 FV of 90%. There may have been some kind of misunderstanding as opposed to deliberate misrepresentation. It's not like somebody took your money and ran.

If you eventually out the other party to this transaction, I certainly want to hear his side of the story. We're not exactly talking about a big money dispute btw.

Smittys · November 25, 2014 1:44AM

<< 

<< In my way of thinking he should take the return and pay for the shipping both ways because the product
was not as described. >>

Or make a price adjustment if your keen on keeping it? >>

piecesofme · November 25, 2014 2:55AM

Seller should probably make the price adjustment for the weight, which is so minimal it's not worth being put in a bad reputation spot here on the BST.

I mean what are we talking about, how many $ is the difference? Just refund that back to Gerard, say you're sorry for the misunderstanding and move forward...and try to be more accurate in what it is you're trying to sell.

jdimmick · November 25, 2014 3:33AM

I would request that he make it right(or work it out) privately, and If not and you feel you were cheated, out the member. I second, we don't need forum members who operate this way on here.

I would like to know who to stay away from before even possibly getting into a deal with someone on here if others in the past had problems. Now there are always two sides to a deal, so I realize this can be seen differently, butThere are a few members on here who I have learned that can be a problem from others posts and if I see something they have for sale, regardless of how much I need it, I know to pass.

bigole · November 25, 2014 5:28AM

Not sure I can add anything to this thread, other than:

- I have done at least 50 buy/sell deals on the BST, and I have never encountered this problem. Which is something we all value.
- I have personally done deals with gerard, so I can vouch for him. He is honest as the day is long.

I would hope the seller makes it right for the customer.

roadrunner · November 25, 2014 5:35AM

The 5% you were short changed should be made up by the seller. I certainly would not risk sending the silver back to them as you could end up out 100% (been there, done that). Do not send it back. 5% is a small price to pay for a "lesson." Next time you'll be wiser and get an actual weight and something in writing + guarantee. Since you are essentially a dealer, treat the transaction from the dealer side. Sometimes dealers just have to write off some transactions as bad deals. A rising price of silver just may bail you out.

On the BST I will never send payment in advance unless I have history with a seller or they can provide me with air tight references. It's just not worth my time to pay first and then have to back pedal if what I receive is not as described. Life is to short to create Buy-Sell situations to agonize over. I hope the seller makes you whole....which I think they will.

MGLICKER · November 25, 2014 6:12AM

<< I wouldn't characterize this as "getting ripped off." You got $140 FV of 90%. There may have been some kind of misunderstanding as opposed to deliberate misrepresentation. It's not like somebody took your money and ran.

If you eventually out the other party to this transaction, I certainly want to hear his side of the story. We're not exactly talking about a big money dispute btw. >>

Well said.

OPA · November 25, 2014 8:24AM

<< I purchased a lot of $140 FV silver and was told the coins were rough and average G4 but the weight was within spec at 7.6 lbs. I received the coins and the weight was 7.21lbs and the average grade was AG3. >>

I'm assuming we are talking troy lb and troy oz. If so, your seller owes u a refund of almost 4 toz or approx $67

Gerard · November 25, 2014 8:39AM

In this market where there is a huge premium on 90% silver so the whole lot is effected since most of it does
not qualify for the junk silver rate. So the loss is more significant than $67.

Collectorcoins · November 25, 2014 8:40AM

give him a deadline, then out him.

mariner67 · November 25, 2014 9:05AM

<< give him a deadline, then out him. >>

+1

gsa1fan · November 25, 2014 9:40AM

Never heard of buying graded 90%? Why didn't you request viewing before purchase?

Now him quoting a exact weight that did not match is 100% in the wrong.

rawteam1 · November 25, 2014 11:18AM

<< Never heard of buying graded 90%? Why didn't you request viewing before purchase?

Now him quoting a exact weight that did not match is 100% in the wrong. >>

Lol, never do biz with anyone who claims to grade junk silver, u were sold a smelter bag that nets 10% behind melt, when of course it's gets its due at the refiner, he got a pretty good deal though...

ajia · November 25, 2014 10:55PM

Haven't been on in quite a while and thought I would check in.

Interesting dilemma here since one man's G04 is another's AG03.
I would not hold a guys responsible for a return based on that.

As far as the weight goes, and it seems like it was specifically discussed, did you ask for it to be weighted or just asked?
Seems like the seller said it was over the "spec" weight without actually weighing it (no specific weight given buy the seller).
There does not seem to be a dispute over the FV of the lot, so to me it is only a weight issue we are speaking of.

Here it really is a matter of what was discussed, and unless we have (an edited) what was said judgement should be held.

JMHO

Weather11am · November 25, 2014 11:04PM

I have never seen someone on the BST specify:

1. The weight.
AND
2. The FV.
AND
3. The grade.

I would expect you either work in weight OR FV. Just my thoughts... doesn't sound like the end of the world if you got the full face.

Happy Thanksgiving!

piecesofme · November 25, 2014 11:15PM

I have never seen someone on the BST specify:

1. The weight.
AND
2. The FV.
AND
3. The grade.

I would expect you either work in weight OR FV. Just my thoughts... doesn't sound like the end of the world if you got the full face.

Happy Thanksgiving!

This...I work in face value and give my best estimation of the OVERALL grade of the Lot. Some may be slightly better than what I describe, some may be slightly worse.
When someone starts asking about weight I usually say, "I'd really like to do some business with you, but I'm not your guy"...because something like this is bound to happen.
One mans AG3 is another mans G4 as ajia so perfectly stated.

But with all that said and only hearing one side of the story, and knowing that the OP specifically deals in weight of 90% and evidentally specifically asked about the weight, I would do what I said earlier in the thread. Try to come to some middle ground and move forward.

ebaybuyer · November 25, 2014 11:58PM

I too would like to hear the other side of the story before I grab my pitchfork, I don't see how there is that much of a weight difference in coins averaging AG vs coins averaging GD. if you want full weight buy XF-AU 1964 generic, there is no shortage of it. this reminds me of the guy that buys AG barbers for melt but requires that they have full rims.

Gerard · November 26, 2014 1:23AM

Quick education about buying 90% silver.

3 things are important.

1) Face value
2) Weight
3) Condition

When I am dealing with APMEX or UPSTATE all I need to know is face value because they
make sure the weight is to spec. Minimum spec is 5.40 lbs/$100 FV.
Kennedy halves typically are 5.5lbs/$100FV which is why they are very desirable
for those looking for the best bang for the dollar.

As for condition, you don't want holed coins or coins so mangled they cant be
counted by any standard coin counter. Since the APMEX's of the world count by machine
this is also not an issue.

When I am buying from non-professionals and there are no pics, I sometimes ask for the weight because
that will tell me the general condition of the coins and wether the silver content is within spec.
This was the case with this purchase. The seller advertised the lot as G4 average
which is relatively a low average grade. So that prompted me to ask the weight.
The weight he provided me was 7.60 lbs for $140 FV (or 5.43 lbs/$100) which alleviated any fears.
The reason I want to return is because the actual weight was 7.21 lbs which
is a huge difference. That equates to 5.14lbs/$100 which is well below spec (5.40 lbs/$100).
Also the coins averaged about AG3 which is pretty predictable based on the weight.
The lot also had more than its fair share of uncountable mangled coins.

As a case in point, I listed the AG3 lot on the multiple boards below wholesale and
no one is biting because as we all should know weight is as important as face.

VanHalen · November 26, 2014 7:33AM

I feel your pain but cannot fathom a 5% weight drop from G to AG. That just doesn't compute. I do agree if the weight is that low you need compensation.

Edited: Now I see where the seller claimed the coins averaged Good but also claimed they weighed 7.6 adv lbs. That's a red flag for you as coins averaging Good are never going to weigh 98.5% of full weight with 7.71 adv lbs being 100%.

APMEX bags average VG/Better to get 98.5%+ weight.

Gerard · November 26, 2014 8:42AM

Here is a pic so you all can feel my pain. I paid 13x face when silver was $16.20.
I will be lucky to get 12x face which would come to a loss of $140.
This is no small amount to me.

[URL=http://s552.photobucket.com/user/coinflex/media/DSCN5303_zps084facba.jpg.html]

[/URL]

jrt103 · November 26, 2014 9:23AM

<< 

When I am buying from non-professionals and there are no pics, I sometimes ask for the weight because
that will tell me the general condition of the coins and wether the silver content is within spec.
This was the case with this purchase. The seller advertised the lot as G4 average
which is relatively a low average grade. So that prompted me to ask the weight.
The weight he provided me was 7.60 lbs for $140 FV (or 5.43 lbs/$100) which alleviated any fears.
The reason I want to return is because the actual weight was 7.21 lbs which
is a huge difference. That equates to 5.14lbs/$100 which is well below spec (5.40 lbs/$100).
>>

Is it possible that the seller weighed the coins while they were in some sort of container which added the extra .4 pounds to his scale?

SamByrd · November 26, 2014 10:29AM

<< I too would like to hear the other side of the story before I grab my pitchfork, I don't see how there is that much of a weight difference in coins averaging AG vs coins averaging GD. if you want full weight buy XF-AU 1964 generic, there is no shortage of it. this reminds me of the guy that buys AG barbers for melt but requires that they have full rims. >>

ebaybuyer · November 26, 2014 11:06AM

guess we will have to wait for ... "the rest of the story" as paul Harvey would say. if you were expecting ave Gd coins, and you received all GD you would still have been underweight. as once a coin is worn down to GD probably 5% or better of the weight is gone. I rarely buy generic silver but I would have no interest in ave GD or ave AG as the group is GOING to be light, not MAY be it WILL be. again, I don't see how there is such a weight disparage from ave AG to ave GD either your scale is wrong, or his is or one of you doesn't know how to use a scale. chalk up the perceived $140 loss to tuition. hold it until silver rebounds and dump it. the next time you buy generic silver, ask for pics, or go for the higher grade 1960-64 stuff

LogPotato · November 26, 2014 11:57AM

I have dealt with he OP multiple times. Always smooth and without a hitch. Both buying and selling. I would like to hear the other side of the story though. (although, I am 99.9% sure who the seller is)

But if the buyer asked the weight, and the seller gave a weight, and that seller sent a lesser amount...well, that's stealing. And stealing is the same whether at $0.01 or $1,000,00.00. To me, the OP isn't required to chalk it up as a bad deal. And to me no sum of money, cheated or stolen from me, is not a big deal.

Gerard · November 26, 2014 1:04PM

I have settled with the seller. I cant say I am happy because my potential losses are much higher.
If the seller was truly an upstanding seller he would have allowed me to return the lot for a full refund
because the lot was not as described weightwise and gradewise.

Thankyou for your feedback on the thread. I believe it helped pressure the seller to settle.

I will leave it up to the seller if he wants to defend himself on this thread.

keets · November 26, 2014 1:54PM

I would wonder why a seller and buyer would do a Coin Silver deal based on weight, it is typically done as FV at a specified rate. we sell quite a bit in $10 lots of three grades --- junk, XF/AU and BU --- with each having a corresponding price such as 13X, etc. every now and then someone wants a weight and I gladly weigh it for them but explain that we aren't selling by weight, we are selling by FV. I suppose in this snafu that the buyer wanted to know the weight and the seller probably obliged, but one of the two has an inaccurate scale or just weighed it wrong.

if the deal had been done as FV there would have been no problem and I presume the same problem might exist at the point of the next sale --- I don't know of ANY DEALER who buys Coin Silver by weight, but maybe that's just me.

morgansforever · November 26, 2014 8:22PM

The seller should send you the difference of .39 lbs. in silver coinage. Maybe the seller didn't tare the scale when dumping the coins into a container, we're human.

lcoopie · November 27, 2014 12:27AM

wrong board

only one bump per day here

grading junk silver sounds strange

What is the preferred way to handle getting ripped off by a board member

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