Need help identifying a coin

EVillageProwler · October 27, 2014 8:01AM

I bought this during the NYINC 2014 show, but am only getting around to dealing with it. According to the seller (he is a mainstream dealer from Italy who is my main supplier of Italian States coins), this is a 2 Scudi. Looking in Krause, I do not see a 1656-IAB for a 2 Scudi. Is Krause simply lacking? Is this a Dav-LS553, KM-82?

And, for those who are so inclined, feel free to guess the dealer's grade for this piece.

EVillageProwler · October 27, 2014 8:22AM

Someone sent me this link: linky-poo

If that is to be believed, then my piece is an RRR!

EVP

Zohar · October 27, 2014 8:30AM

I remember this supersized heavy piece. AU-50/53?

EVillageProwler · October 27, 2014 8:37AM

<< <i>I remember this supersized heavy piece. AU-50/53? >>

To be honest, I wasn't expecting Zohar to play the GTG game. But, yes, the seller thinks this is an AU53. Anyway, I'll just pretend that my <ahem> FORMER good friend Zohar really did say "congrats on getting an unexpected RRR!".

EVP

PS

Zohar · October 27, 2014 8:54AM

Coin really sucks - you selling?

For all of you looking at the image, this coin is as I recall larger/heavier than a double Taler. Did they stick it in the tombstone holder?

Zohar · October 27, 2014 8:57AM

Seems like you really got a uncommon type - LINK

Zohar · October 27, 2014 9:00AM

But you should really get this monster next - 6 Scudi

EVillageProwler · October 27, 2014 9:14AM

Thanks Zohar. According to Kunker, mine is only an RR. Anyway, I left it raw. There's always time to slab it later if desired. As for the 6 Scudi, not sure I can afford it. But who knows...

EVP

marcmoish · October 29, 2014 10:52AM

Its def not AU imho - at best EF45 and welcome to hear what others say.

The only parts here AU is obverse at 12 and 2 oclock.

Congrats on the rarity is def in order..you seem to have an eye for rarity and exotic newps

EVillageProwler · October 29, 2014 11:24AM

Thanks Marc. The cool factor on this piece is certainly up there, no matter the rarity or grade.

Speaking of its grade, since I have the benefit of handling it raw and in hand, I'll make these comments:

* The coin absolutely doesn't look AU, but nearly all my Italian States crown-sized pieces look worse than their TPG grades on casual inspection (yes, I have a couple that I feel are under-graded too)
* The coin is bowled, concave on the cross side, yet that side looks EF at best, suggesting that poor strike quality may be more of an issue here
* Similar analysis can be applied on the Madonna side, so look at the coin's quality as it approaches the periphery
* This is a heavy coin, struck for commercial not presentation purposes, by medieval Italians not Germans or Austrians

My opinion of its grade? I think this is EVP-approved. That is as much as I can reasonably say about it. I don't have enough knowledge to confidently map its quality to a mainstream USA coin grade.

EVP

Zohar · October 29, 2014 11:41AM

I will say (again) that when EVP pulled this one from a bulk purchase I was impressed by the size/weight of this thing. Never seen one like it. Very impressive piece.

LochNESS · October 29, 2014 6:24PM

Gubernatores? as in, gubernatorial? We are having elections here for Senate seats perhaps this is a timely purchase

worldcoinguy · October 30, 2014 7:25AM

Impressive piece EVP - I really like it. I can't say that I have seen one of these offered in any venue in recent memory. Its a nice piece to have squirreled away since NYINC.

In my humble opinion, I would grade an EF-40 or maybe EF-45. I have several piastras in EF grades that have a similar appearance. Granted, this is a double scudi and the planchet is heavier, but I think there is too little definition on the cherubs (via normal wear or weak strike) to earn an AU.

EVillageProwler · October 30, 2014 10:45AM

Given my ignorance of this specific coin, I'd give it an EF-ish grade too. Adjusting for the strike and bowled planchet, I can be convinced to say EF45 because the better struck areas suggest it.

However...

For those of us familiar with US coinage, remember the 1969 Washington 25c? The business strike pieces generally came off the presses looking AU-ish. The slightest bit of time actually circulating can make it look EF-ish or worse.

The TPG's have since learned that it's ok to give it an MS63 grade if it looks like a lustrous ChAU piece.

My coin is clearly not UNC. But what degree of circulation is the debate here. How deceiving is its appearance?

When I first saw the coin, I thought that that looks EF-ish. I asked the dealer how he grades it (we were doing a GTG game with his raw inventory). When he said AU53, I thought "whatever" and simply decided it was worth the asking price to me. A modern TPG grade is frequently a reflection of a coin's market value for the type. I paid $XXXX. Therefore, I would grade it $XXXX.

EVP

nicholasz219 · October 30, 2014 9:21PM

Tremendously interesting coin, EVP. I was going to hazard a guess of about EF without any distinction between 40 or 45 because frankly, I am not that good at grading pieces that technically and much less pieces I have never seen before.

What I find super interesting about this coin, besides the motif and the Italian heritage of course, which I will resist collecting largely due to the insane prices that I can not afford of these pieces, is that the date, or at least the five seems to have been repunched with the sharper more recent five of the date on top of a lower relief possibly wider five underneath. You also see it in the N to the left of the cross and the second V from the cross as well.

Maybe given the date of this piece, should I be saying "recut" instead of "repunched"? I have no idea. I can imagine that from the weight of it it must have taken quite a strike to make a presentable coin.

LochNESS · October 31, 2014 3:17PM

The 5 underneath is larger on all sides all around. I see this foundation on all the digits and most of the letters, actually. I believe this is the font design, not evidence of a repunching or restriking.

Nap · October 31, 2014 10:04PM

It's a lovely piece, one that I know nothing about, but it's certainly something to be appreciated for its size and design.

nicholasz219 · November 1, 2014 2:08AM

Yes, I can see that now that you say that. It does look like a stacked appearance.

Need help identifying a coin

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