Assistance needed-Scarce South African Penny

Zohar · October 19, 2014 12:44AM

Can anyone help place value on this. I don't collect yet may trade for this opportunistically. Thank you.

StrikeOutXXX · October 19, 2014 1:41AM

I'm not 100% sure which one this is, but the Unusual World Coin book has the following 1888's in Bronze:

X# Pn5 PENNY
Bronze - Obv: Ornamental Shield - Note: Prev. KM#Pn9
1888 Proof - Value: 425

X# Pn6 PENNY
Bronze - Obv: "1 PENNY" larger Note: Prev. KM#Pn9
1888 Proof - Value: 175

X# Pn7 PENNY
Bronze - Rev: Plain shield - Note: Prev. KM#Pn13
1888 - Value 475

That's the 2005 4th Ed book. Since they graded it MS and not Proof, I only see the last one (Pn7) but nothing that exactly matches "Elegant Shield" and not with that "I" mintmark?

Zohar · October 19, 2014 2:04AM

I think we are talking a much higher degree of scarcity. I am away from my computer yet will look these up later.

Andres · October 19, 2014 3:09AM

appropriate motto : Geduld en Moed = Patience and Courage

an interesting coin for Dutch, English and South African coin collectors

brg5658 · October 19, 2014 4:33AM

Well, that exact coin recently ended on eBay strangely "because the item was lost or broken"...whatever that means. No bites at the posted $6K tells me that the "value" is likely well below that.

The seller adamantly claimed that the mintage was 10 coins...yet NGC has graded 5 of them. I personally have a problem believing that only 10 of this pattern exist, yet NGC alone has graded 5 of them.

Seller from Hungary described this exact coin as:
EXTREMELY RARE 1888 LLC South Africa 1 PENNY ORANGE FREE STATE BRONZE NGC MS62 !
This is LLC mintmark, more rarest than normal!
Estimated mintage only 10 pieces, totally 5 graded !! please look NGC vertification.

Screen shot from the auction started on Aug 16, 2014 and ended on Sept 25, 2014:

Zohar · October 19, 2014 5:24AM

That's the one! So I bet the coin was either sold for lower and buyer wants to flip or get out of this. Question is value - I have seen these go upto $8K in higher grades.

Thanks very much BRG!

ormandh · October 19, 2014 11:20AM

WOWSERS!

LochNESS · October 19, 2014 11:47AM

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the "mintage" on ultra rare coins is often just the "known" quantity - or an educated guess based on the known population. And it's nobody's fault. For example the USA 1933 St. Gauden's were thought to have only 2 surviving, and then they found 20 more ... a little different because those were recalled/melted but it's happened with many coins. Mintages and population get blurred as rarity gets higher IMHO.

WorldCoinsDmitry · October 19, 2014 1:59PM

Here you go: http://coins.ha.com/itm/south-africa/world-coins/south-africa-orange-free-state-pattern-penny-1888-/a/3026-25735.s

LochNESS · October 19, 2014 3:58PM

<< Hern states that these pieces were actually salesmen's samples, most struck in Berlin with prooflike surfaces, and he calls them all "uncirculated." >>

Salesmen's samples? Were they trying to sell this design to the government mint? If true, does that mean these are unofficial private strikes? like the products of modern fantasy such as Darfur Sultanate?

edit: The Heritage example is a point higher than Zohar's - and PCGS - but I think Zohar's looks much nicer. It still has some of the orange color. The Heritage coin has that buttery brown tone (which I personally don't like). This may explain why the Heritage coin sold for less than half of what Zohar's coin was going for on ebay.

WorldCoinsDmitry · October 19, 2014 5:29PM

Or it could just be that the guy asking $6k for it is dreaming, especially after having recently sold Spanish colonial coins with modern fake counterstamps

Steve27 · October 19, 2014 11:31PM

<< Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the "mintage" on ultra rare coins is often just the "known" quantity - or an educated guess based on the known population. And it's nobody's fault. For example the USA 1933 St. Gauden's were thought to have only 2 surviving, and then they found 20 more ... a little different because those were recalled/melted but it's happened with many coins. Mintages and population get blurred as rarity gets higher IMHO. >>

While I agree with your sentiment, I find your example to be a bit off the mark. The 1933 Saint Gaudens was never issued by the Mint, and all were believed to have been melted (except for the pair intentionally retained). It appears all the examples, which were not melted, came from Izzy Switt who obtained them nefariously from the Philadelphia Mint. In the case of coins/patterns like this example, the records just aren't available; thus, the number extant it used as the number minted.

brg5658 · October 20, 2014 12:24AM

<< 

<< Hern states that these pieces were actually salesmen's samples, most struck in Berlin with prooflike surfaces, and he calls them all "uncirculated." >>

Salesmen's samples? Were they trying to sell this design to the government mint? If true, does that mean these are unofficial private strikes? like the products of modern fantasy such as Darfur Sultanate?

edit: The Heritage example is a point higher than Zohar's - and PCGS - but I think Zohar's looks much nicer. It still has some of the orange color. The Heritage coin has that buttery brown tone (which I personally don't like). This may explain why the Heritage coin sold for less than half of what Zohar's coin was going for on ebay. >>

The item on eBay didn't sell for $6,000. It was ended...who knows how the coin reached its current owner from the original eBay seller in Hungary.

WorldCoinsDmitry · October 20, 2014 3:19AM

Why assume it actually sold to someone? A listing on ebay being ended can mean many things. A fake counterstamped 8 reales this seller had listed was ended early, but it could just be because people from the Facebook group about fake Spanish coins hounded the seller about it. We discussed the ones you can see in completed items in the group when the listings were active.

This is a $2,000 to $3,000 coin, from a seller with a less than stellar reputation. Good thing Zohar didn't go for it.

LochNESS · October 20, 2014 3:45AM

Good point, BRG. It may not have sold for $6k but I do think it sold. The excuse shown on eBay is probably due to them selecting the wrong option by accident, when closing the item. Perhaps the $6k figure was to cover eBay and PayPal fees, and maybe they sold it for $5k. Still on the high end of the spectrum. There are three other examples of this type in Heritage archives ... all under $2k.

<< While I agree with your sentiment, I find your example to be a bit off the mark. The 1933 Saint Gaudens was never issued by the Mint, and all were believed to have been melted (except for the pair intentionally retained). >>

Sounds like we agree. As I said, and you concurred, they retained two and thus it was believed there were only two surviving examples. Until Mr. Switt's descendants discovered (a folder in the attic, if memory serves) of 20 more?
OK so instead of stating they were "recalled/melted" I should've just said "melted"

Technically off the mark, but only by a tiny "bit." They were obviously struck with intent to distribute, until the law changed and the Mint had to melt them. So the order to distribute was cancelled ... and late at night, in my mind, "recalled/melted" felt acceptable.

Assistance needed-Scarce South African Penny

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