Home World & Ancient Coins Forum

How do "they" know how old an ancient coin is?

I was just looking at the cool selection of ancient coins on the Civitas website. Many are listed with date ranges and circa. I don't collect ancients but think they are really unbelievable. To think about where the coins have been and who used them is unreal. How do we know when these coins were used? It seems amazing to me to think how one would come up with this information based on the lack of information on the coins themselves. Any ideas? For example, there are coins listed with 400 B.C. How in the world do you come up with that date?

Comments

  • JCMhoustonJCMhouston Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭
    You can know for example when particular people ruled, when particular people were moneyers (mintmasters), when a particular event took place, when a particular city minted coins, just as examples. But many of the ancients are listed with a date range that may span a hundred years or more. In those cases you often rely on archeological evidence, when coins of a certain type and style have been found within a dated excavation so you can assign a range of dates for when a coin may have been minted.. Also many of the coins are dated based strictly on style of engraving, where we have other evidence of certain stylistic tendencies in dated art works.
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there a reference book that connects the dots for people like me giving the reason behind the estimated dates? I think that would be a fascinating read.
  • When it comes to ancient coins there isn't one big reference, in stead there are some affordable references on different aspects and then a number of multi-volume catalogs that are "this is what this museum has and this is what we're calling this coin and we are dating it as such for such and such reason" that cost thousands of dollars a set

    some coins we can only date to their years of rule (Philip II of Macedon being a good example) others we can get more specific given reasons mentioned in JCMhouston's post, some of the Roman Imperial material can be pinned down to an exact year based on titles the ruler was awarded if we have knowledge of when that took place

    it's a very interesting aspect of numismatics because they really can't be commoditized into like a red book for US coins or say a Friedberg book for paper money, I say this but I believe it will still happen with the more plentiful material given how much is making it into NGC slabs now, but ancient coins can be so different from die to die that I don't know how they'd even go about it, it isn't like modern coinage where yes there are die differences but one isn't a blobby mess of a design and the next a flat out work of art

    =Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award 4/28/2014=
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think this book is exactly what you're looking for (although it's a bit expensive): Dated Coins of Antiquity

    It focuses on the coins which can be very precisely dated. Most other coins can be dated with a bit rougher of ranges, based on the inscriptions and the shown ruler/emperor. There are still some discrepancies in our understanding of certain areas but overall, ancient coins are actually surprisingly well understood and organized, thanks to a few hundred years of dedicated academic study.

    A quick overview and example of dating a Roman coin can be found here: Anatomy of a Roman Coin and another here: How to read inscriptions on Roman coins
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection


  • << <i>I think this book is exactly what you're looking for (although it's a bit expensive): Dated Coins of Antiquity >>



    I thought about posting this, I own it, it's good, but it's for coins that have a date in one language or another already on the coin in some form and the author converted those to our now used "BC/AD (or BCE/CE)" system
    =Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award 4/28/2014=
  • William E. Metcalf wrote an interesting book titled: "the Oxford Handbook of Greek and Roman coinage". Decent read if you have a interest in the history of Greek and roman coins from an academic point of view.
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think this book is exactly what you're looking for (although it's a bit expensive): Dated Coins of Antiquity

    It focuses on the coins which can be very precisely dated. Most other coins can be dated with a bit rougher of ranges, based on the inscriptions and the shown ruler/emperor. There are still some discrepancies in our understanding of certain areas but overall, ancient coins are actually surprisingly well understood and organized, thanks to a few hundred years of dedicated academic study.

    A quick overview and example of dating a Roman coin can be found here: Anatomy of a Roman Coin and another here: How to read inscriptions on Roman coins >>



    Thank you! Those are great. Any other links like this would be appreciated. Fascinating stuff.
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you are wondering why the dates of reign of the rulers are known,
    it is because the Greeks and Romans had active historians, who wrote books.
    They were reproduced by hand copying, and some survive today.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War (covers the years 433-411 BC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_History_(Pliny) (written in 77-79AD)
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If you are wondering why the dates of reign of the rulers are known,
    it is because the Greeks and Romans had active historians, who wrote books.
    They were reproduced by hand copying, and some survive today.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War (covers the years 433-411 BC)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_History_(Pliny) (written in 77-79AD) >>



    Thank you
  • AethelredAethelred Posts: 9,288 ✭✭✭
    I think it is worth pointing out that with some ancient coins there is debate about when they were made. What we know (or think we know) is always evolving.
    If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:

    WNC Coins, LLC
    1987-C Hendersonville Road
    Asheville, NC 28803


    wnccoins.com
  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think it is worth pointing out that with some ancient coins there is debate about when they were made. >>


    Romania 1960s?

    DPOTD-3
    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428


    Don
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I think it is worth pointing out that with some ancient coins there is debate about when they were made. >>


    Romania 1960s? >>



    Or the 1970s, according to The Onion
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageimageimageimageimageimage
    imageimageimageimageimageimage
    imageimageimageimageimageimage
    imageimageimageimageimageimage
    imageimageimageimageimageimage

    DPOTD-3
    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428


    Don
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,875 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the case of this Tetradrachm of Maximian minted in Alexandria the epsilon over the L in the left field reverse signifies the fifth regnal year or 289/290 A.D.


    image
  • determineddetermined Posts: 771 ✭✭✭
    Another way "they" get information on coin dates, or at least approximate dates, is by the evidence found in coin hoards. And I don't only mean the large hoards you read about in the news. But small hoards also. Everyday ancient people buried their coins too. It was the bank of the day. And it's amazing how many were never reclaimed.

    By what coins and artifacts are buried together, environmental clues, etc, they can get some idea of coin dates. In fact there are books, and especially journal articles, just on hoard examinations and what can be learned from them. Collectors often ignore these dry stuffy articles. But by reading them they can give you an edge over other collectors and dealers for the cherry picks. Knowledge is power.



    << <i>I think it is worth pointing out that with some ancient coins there is debate about when they were made. What we know (or think we know) is always evolving. >>



    Well said!
    I collect history in the form of coins.
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the information everyone. Is there such thing as an ancients type set? How do beginning collectors tend to group things? For example, do roman coins get grouped by emperor? It seems overwhelming. Where do you start?
  • JCMhoustonJCMhouston Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭
    You can slice and dice ancients in many different ways. In Romans for example you could do Roman Republic, or the Caesars, or the "good emperors", or a complete set of the Empire. Within Greek coins it can also be as narrow or wide as you want, you could pick a timeframe, or a region, maybe even a particular city with examples throughout time. Or if you are poor at decision making and sticking to a plan (like some we won't mention image ) you could just go with any coins you like the design of.
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Thanks for the information everyone. Is there such thing as an ancients type set? How do beginning collectors tend to group things? For example, do roman coins get grouped by emperor? It seems overwhelming. Where do you start? >>




    There are a number of articles you can read to get started. Ancient coins can seem overwhelming because of how many different varieties/emperors/etc. there are but it's not hard to find a place in history that you like and find the right aesthetics to match your desires.

    Here are a couple places to start:
    A Guide to Ancient Coin Collecting
    Greek Coins Part I
    Greek Coins Part II
    Greek Coins Part III
    Greek Coins Part IV
    Greek Coins Part V

    Many people work on a "Twelve Caesars" set or the "Five Good Emperors" but you really have free reign to collect what you like. Personally, I'm collecting "an intersection of history and aesthetics", with very little actual rigid requirements: if a coin "speaks" to me and is historically interesting (as most are), I'll look to acquire it.

    As always, ask away here! We're all very interested in helping out image
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That Guide to Ancient Coin Collecting is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

    When buying a graded coin, how much influence on re-sale values does a higher strike and surface number have? For example, I see many coins selling on eBay with 2/5 and 3/5 for strike and surface. Do you recommend staying away from these coins? How much higher are prices for coins with 4/5 and 5/5 for the same grades?
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That Guide to Ancient Coin Collecting is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

    When buying a graded coin, how much influence on re-sale values does a higher strike and surface number have? For example, I see many coins selling on eBay with 2/5 and 3/5 for strike and surface. Do you recommend staying away from these coins? How much higher are prices for coins with 4/5 and 5/5 for the same grades? >>



    At this point, I'd say that there is insufficient data to say the "n/5" is worth x times "m/5" as the number of slabbed coins pales in comparison to the number of raw ancients. However, of the slabbed coins I've bought and sold myself, I've primarily been attracted to the 4 and 5/5 coins. There is a fair amount of subjectivity in the grading and rating scales but 4-5 are generally rather nice, with 3s usually being acceptable. Below 3 and you'll begin to encounter more tooling, smoothing, and scratches than most collectors would want to see.

    In the end, it really depends on where the marks/scratches are, how the strike looks, and the coin's style, centering, and eye appeal.

    If you aren't already aware of it, you may want to use www.acsearch.info to compare historical prices. As always, feel free to send me (or other members) a PM if you're uncertain about a purchase. I have a fairly focused wantlist and buy primarily at auction so I probably won't snatch up the coins you're considering image
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is an impressive reference website. Wow!

    I think I need to buy a few reference books before I dive into the pool image Out of everything I have looked at, the 12 Caesars seems like an enjoyable set that could be accomplished for a pretty reasonable price. It seems like the first coin may be a little pricey. Is that an accurate assessment?

    I really like NiceCurrency's gallery. It gives me an idea of how to get started. Any other examples of a 12 Caesars set? Any reference books?
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That is an impressive reference website. Wow!

    I think I need to buy a few reference books before I dive into the pool image Out of everything I have looked at, the 12 Caesars seems like an enjoyable set that could be accomplished for a pretty reasonable price. It seems like the first coin may be a little pricey. Is that an accurate assessment?

    I really like NiceCurrency's gallery. It gives me an idea of how to get started. Any other examples of a 12 Caesars set? Any reference books? >>



    Sounds like a good place to start! Portrait coins of Julius Caesar can be expensive but there are other alternatives (an "elephant" denarius with CAESAR written on it is sometimes substituted).

    Here's my "Eclectic Seventeen Caesars" (still under construction): See this thread - I include a number of rare types and some fairly long writeups in each post if you click on the emperor's name, which should give you some additional detail.

    lordmarcovan also has assembled a nice set of slabbed coins and additional context for each as well: Twelve Caesars
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am enjoying the threads immensely. I noticed the following comment in your thread,

    provincial versus a regular Roman issue

    How do you know which is which?
  • The numiswiki on forum ancient coins is also a very good resource of learning

    here

    again if you go to forum ancient coins and click on the member's gallery here you can see tons of individual coins and the many sets that people are assembling

    Thank you for the kind words on my set image

    I think it is just as fun to learn about the history behind these coins

    on the Roman side of things, I've read 'The Twelve Caesars' by Suetonius (take anything in here with a grain of salt, Suetonius was writing this in the year 121 during the reign of Hadrian and the work seems to be rife with gossip)
    'Julius Caesar' by Philip Freeman (there are a number of works on ol' Caesar but I believe this is one of the highest rated ones)
    'Augustus' by Anthony Everitt (same deal here, highly rated and I enjoyed it immensely as well as 'Julius Caesar')
    'The Early History of Rome' by "Livy" (Titus Livius) (This goes over the founding myths up to the sacking by the Gauls in 390BC)
    and then there's the massive 'The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' by Edward Gibbon in the late 18th century (this is 6 volumes and goes over a mind boggling amount of information, I'll quote wikipedia here "The work covers the history of the Roman Empire, Europe, and the Catholic Church from 98 to 1590 and discusses the decline of the Roman Empire in the East and West. Because of its relative objectivity and heavy use of primary sources, unusual at the time, its methodology became a model for later historians. This led to Gibbon being called the first "modern historian of ancient Rome".[7]")

    there is also a very enjoyable free podcast by a gentleman named Mike Duncan entitled 'The History of Rome' that covers the entire period from the founding myths through to the fall of the western empire (I have not listened to this in it's entirety, I started from the beginning and in my listening Caesar was just assassinated), each podcast is 15-25 minutes and it's really well done
    =Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award 4/28/2014=
  • CIVITASCIVITAS Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I am enjoying the threads immensely. I noticed the following comment in your thread,

    provincial versus a regular Roman issue

    How do you know which is which? >>



    Generally speaking, provincial issues were struck with legends in Greek, as it was the local language in most provinces outside of Italy.

    This is not a hard and fast rule, but will differentiate 90%+ vs Roman issues.

    You can see what I mean here: http://www.civitasgalleries.com/cgi/store/commerce.cgi?product=Provincial


    Additionally, you'll find that Provincial issues generally have a much more crude style than Roman Imperial issues. It's oftentimes 'cartoonish.' They were much further away from Rome, and didn't have access to highly trained engravers in many cases. Additionally, they didn't always have a good resemblance of the emperor to work with.
    image
    https://www.civitasgalleries.com

    New coins listed monthly!

    Josh Moran

    CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Josh.

    So when I see an Augustus coin that says Lugdunum on the holder is that considered a Province?
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,875 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>there is also a very enjoyable free podcast by a gentleman named Mike Duncan entitled 'The History of Rome' that covers the entire period from the founding myths through to the fall of the western empire (I have not listened to this in it's entirety, I started from the beginning and in my listening Caesar was just assassinated), each podcast is 15-25 minutes and it's really well done >>



    I'm enjoying those too NiceCurrency. Nice to listen too on long drives.
  • CIVITASCIVITAS Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Thanks Josh.

    So when I see an Augustus coin that says Lugdunum on the holder is that considered a Province? >>



    Well, I think in that case, it's probably just an Imperial mint at Lugdunum and would be considered a proper Roman Imperial issue.

    One other thing that many provincial coins have is the name of the province in which the coin was intended to circulate. If you look at the back of this coin:

    image

    You can see at the top that it says "TYRIORYM" for Tyre in Phoenicia. Even though the legends are in Latin, it's a provincial issue.

    This coin's legends are in Greek (which is more typical) and the reverse legends says "ODHCCEITWN" for Odessus in Thrace:

    image

    Generally speaking, a provincial coin has the emperor's portrait done in crude style, typically has Greek language on the coin, has a legend or ethnic on the coin indicating the name of the place the coin was intended to circulate (coins with Latin legends often have the word COLONIA or some abbreviation thereof), and frequently comes from places that had a history of autonomous coinage prior to being subjugated by the Romans. I'm sure there are some coins that have some of these traits that could be argued both ways.
    image
    https://www.civitasgalleries.com

    New coins listed monthly!

    Josh Moran

    CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
Sign In or Register to comment.